the elect few?

[Guest]

Hi Glow,

If I understand Calvinism correctly, from their perspective, nobody can know whether or not they are elect until the second they die. That's their version of Perseverance as I understand it.

Most of the Calvinists would say you can know that you are one of the elect if you love God, because Calvinists say that the only way that you would love God is if God changed your heart and gave you faith, so that you were justified.

Calvinists recognize that those that are Justified are the same as the Predestinated and the Glorified.

-Turretinfan

And what about those who love God for awhile, then fall away?

If they loved God, they would not "fall away."

All the Calvinists I have heard say this is evidence that they were never saved.

By their fruits we know them.

So all that love they had while they "thought" they were saved was no assurance at all.

The lost are all blind to their lost state. Why would a self-deceiving hypocrite be any different? Do you think that devout Muslims and Mormons recognize that they are headed for hell?

Which brings up the important question: How does a Calvinist know if he loves God for real, or is just deceived?

By faith evidenced by works.

This seems to give the default position that loving God may or may not be "real", it's too subjective to be used as proof of assurance of salvation. So perserverence to the end is all they can really use as proof of assurance.

Perseverance to the end is not "assurance" except to friends and relatives. They may be assured of the sincerity of our profession if we persevere to the end, but we can be assured by faith.

Unless one can loose their salvation.

God is not a failure.
-Turretinfan

[Guest]

Hello Turretinfan,

If they loved God, they would not "fall away."

Unless their love grew cold (Math 24:12) and they did not continue faithfully following Christ (Matt 13:18-23) and bearing fruit in which case they are cut off from Christ and burned (John 15:2&6, Romans 11:19-22).

By their fruits we know them.

Indeed, although you haven't explained what to do when one's fruit changes.

The lost are all blind to their lost state. Why would a self-deceiving hypocrite be any different? Do you think that devout Muslims and Mormons recognize that they are headed for hell?

I'm not sure if you understand my question. What about those who faithfully call Jesus Lord for a time? If you contend they were never saved, then how did this lost, blind man comprehend something like "Jesus is Lord"? I thought those without the Spirit will not accept Spiritual things.

Even Paul predicted men would fall away:
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

You have to have faith to depart from it.

Which brings up the important question: How does a Calvinist know if he loves God for real, or is just deceived?

By faith evidenced by works.

This is what some who have fallen away have also produced. So if they fell away later, and that means they were never saved, then does "faith evidenced by works" really give evidence of salvation to a Calvinist?

Perseverance to the end is not "assurance" except to friends and relatives. They may be assured of the sincerity of our profession if we persevere to the end, but we can be assured by faith.

But what if someone who thinks they are saved by faith really is: "a self-deceiving hypocrite" and "lost"? As you stated above? How does one really know for sure? I mean, the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? Even a regenerated heart still commits sin. Certainly you have known of people who went to church and believe Jesus is Lord, but just get burned out and leave. Or suffer a great trial in their life and deny Christ? Maybe they never were saved, that is true. But think about this, what if you have yet to face that "great trial" in life that leads you to deny the faith. If that happened, then all the assurance you had before that point proved to be meaningless.

God is not a failure.
-Turretinfan

No but man is. Is man not so depraved that he can reject God? God honors those who honor Him.


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

[Guest]

Two examples of regenerated persons who lost out in the end, a scriptural example, and a relatively recent example:

1. Simon the magician
Simon claimed to be God (or a god). But then he believed and was baptized (Acts 8:13)

We are informed in Mark 16:16 that "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

Now Simon tried to buy with mony the gift of imparting the Holy Spirit.
Peter replied, "Your money perish with you" or as the Cotton Patch version has it, "You and your money can go to hell".

Simon replied, "Pray the Lord that none of this will happen to me."
Simon didn't repent. He just wanted to escape the consequences of his actions (Sound familiar?)

History shows that Simon returned to claiming to be divine, and took a woman along with him, whom he claimed to have directly begotten.
After his death, a Roman official erected a statue to his honour with the inscription, "To the great god, Simon".

2. Charles Templeton, assistant to Billy Graham, preached the same gospel message that Billy preached, and many people responded and apparently became "saved".

Then Charles fell away. Billy visited him and attempted to restore him.
Charles responded, "You are my friend, Billy, and I'm grateful for your concern for me. But I just don't believe that stuff anymore."

Charles continued in his apostate condition until death.

[Guest]

Hello Turretinfan,

If they loved God, they would not "fall away."

Unless their love grew cold (Math 24:12) and they did not continue faithfully following Christ (Matt 13:18-23) and bearing fruit in which case they are cut off from Christ and burned (John 15:2&6, Romans 11:19-22).

By their fruits we know them.

Indeed, although you haven't explained what to do when one's fruit changes.

The lost are all blind to their lost state. Why would a self-deceiving hypocrite be any different? Do you think that devout Muslims and Mormons recognize that they are headed for hell?

I'm not sure if you understand my question. What about those who faithfully call Jesus Lord for a time? If you contend they were never saved, then how did this lost, blind man comprehend something like "Jesus is Lord"? I thought those without the Spirit will not accept Spiritual things.

Even Paul predicted men would fall away:
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

You have to have faith to depart from it.

Which brings up the important question: How does a Calvinist know if he loves God for real, or is just deceived?

By faith evidenced by works.

This is what some who have fallen away have also produced. So if they fell away later, and that means they were never saved, then does "faith evidenced by works" really give evidence of salvation to a Calvinist?

Perseverance to the end is not "assurance" except to friends and relatives. They may be assured of the sincerity of our profession if we persevere to the end, but we can be assured by faith.

But what if someone who thinks they are saved by faith really is: "a self-deceiving hypocrite" and "lost"? As you stated above? How does one really know for sure? I mean, the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? Even a regenerated heart still commits sin. Certainly you have known of people who went to church and believe Jesus is Lord, but just get burned out and leave. Or suffer a great trial in their life and deny Christ? Maybe they never were saved, that is true. But think about this, what if you have yet to face that "great trial" in life that leads you to deny the faith. If that happened, then all the assurance you had before that point proved to be meaningless.

God is not a failure.
-Turretinfan

No but man is. Is man not so depraved that he can reject God? God honors those who honor Him.


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

I'm not sure that debating the Calvinist position is really the point of this thread. Surely there are arguments made against it, and the one you have presented above is one such argument.

The argument, as with most of the other arguments, places the responsibility for perserverance squarely on man's shoulders, which is why Calvinists immediately reject it.

We are monergists, the Lord alone is our Salvation.

-Turretinfan

[Guest]

I'm not sure that debating the Calvinist position is really the point of this thread. Surely there are arguments made against it, and the one you have presented above is one such argument.

The argument, as with most of the other arguments, places the responsibility for perserverance squarely on man's shoulders, which is why Calvinists immediately reject it.

We are monergists, the Lord alone is our Salvation.

-Turretinfan

I realize you believe that way, but I don't understand why. I can cite more passages than those above that place perseverance "squarely on man's shoulders". It's not our power, it's our trust in God's power. We are kept by the power of God, through faith.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble

James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

As well as Paul's excellent discourse in 1 Corinthians 10 about perseverance.