God a respecter of persons?

[Guest]

When Paul says that God is not a respecter of persons, he does not mean that God shows no preference to righteous behavior over unrighteous behavior (of course He does! 1 Sam.2:30). Paul's meaning is that God judges entirely by man's choices, attitudes and behaviors (He "resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble"), not by respect for the status (lit. "face") of certain persons (e.g., the Jews, masters of slaves, etc.) despite their bad behavior (see Romans 2:6-13; 10:11-13 / Eph.6:9 / Col.3:25).

Peter uses the expression the same way (Acts 10:34), pointing out that God does not favor a Jew over a man of another nation, but favors everyone who "fears Him and works righteousness."

Vine, gives this interesting definition of the greek expression for "respect of persons":

"...the fault of one who, when responsible to give judgment, has respect to the position, rank, popularity, or circumstances of men, instead of their intrinsic conditions..."

Thus the statements about God not showing this kind of partiality do actually militate against a Calvinist concept of God's eternal favoritism toward some over others, regardless of their actions.

Of course, Calvinism teaches that the actions of the unregenerate are all evil, a statement that has no scripture teaching it (despite the Calvinists' citation of Psalm 14, and its reappearance in Romans 3), and which seems to be proven false by the case under consideration, to wit, that of Cornelius.

[Guest]

When Paul says that God is not a respecter of persons, he does not mean that God shows no preference to righteous behavior over unrighteous behavior (of course He does! 1 Sam.2:30). Paul's meaning is that God judges entirely by man's choices (He "resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble"), not by respect for the status (lit. "face") of certain persons (e.g., the Jews) despite their bad behavior (see Romans 2:6-13; 10:11-13 / Eph.6:9 / Col.3:25). Peter uses the expression the same way (Acts 10:34), pointing out that God does not favor a Jew over a man of another nation, but favors all who "fear Him and do righteousness."

I don't think most people would say that "pride" and "humility" are choices, but rather attitudes and states of mind.

If God judges people for pride, he's not judging just the choice, but the heart of man.

Indeed, the same choice (the choice to give money to the poor, for example) can be good if done from a good heart, and bad if done from a bad heart.

Thus, when it comes to righteousness, it is not enough to make good choices, they must be properly motivated.

-Turretinfan

[Guest]

Actually, the Bible everywhere treats humility as a choice. "Humble yourself..." (James 4:10 & 1 Peter 5:6/ cf. Exodus 10:3/ 2 Kings 22:19/ Prov.6:3/ Daniel 10:12). The Bible never suggests that making a man humble is God's responsibility.

[Guest]

I believe pride and humility sneak up on us. The positive (humility) comes from a caring attitude towards others and confidence in who you are. Both saved and unsaved people are known to be humble. Paul calls it contentment and his advise to fellow believers is to be content with the things you have. If one is content with what he has then out of it comes all the fruits of the spirit.

Pride, on the other hand is just the opposite and also can be in the life of the believer or unbeliever. It may have had innocent beginnings but it is the symptom of an attitude that one must constantly compare himself to another or another situation and deems those as insignificant in comparison.

In our new life in Christ, then each of these 2 things become a choice to either continue or depart from

[Guest]

Actually, the Bible everywhere treats humility as a choice. "Humble yourself..." (James 4:10 & 1 Peter 5:6/ cf. Exodus 10:3/ 2 Kings 22:19/ Prov.6:3/ Daniel 10:12). The Bible never suggests that making a man humble is God's responsibility.

A) Steve, the fact remains that humility is a state of the heart, just like pride.
B) That fact is proven by Scripture, in the very passage of James that you referenced first in your list.
C) And that same passage in James shows that the difference between the proud and the humble is not meritorious choice, but grace. "But He giveth more grace" thereby overcoming "The spirit that dwelleth in us [which] lusteth to envy"
D) And if you had read the third chapter of James you would recognize that the deeds of men have their source in the heart of man, whether good or evil. After all, can a fig tree bear olive berries?
E) And you would also recognize also that James is drawing a distinction between natural wisdom that leads to envy and spiritual wisdom which brings forth the fruit of righteousness and comes from above.

Seeing that these things are so, we should glorify God.
And though you, Steve, may call humility a choice, Scripture in all of the passages you provided (and the others beside) do not call it a choice. Humilty and pride, as everyone knows, are states of heart: attitudes.

-Turretinfan

[Guest]

A) Peter does not mention regeneration here, so if you are asking whether Peter answers that question here, the answer is, "no he doesn't say that this refers to unregenerate man."

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

Cornelius feared God and was devout before he was "saved" (Acts 11:13-14).

B) If you are asking about the condition of unregenerate men (i.e. whether there is a group of do-good unregenerates), the teaching of Scriptue is summed up by Paul thus: "There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...."

Why do you think Paul preface that series of comments with this:

Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written:

It's interesting to me that when I quote this:
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

and this:

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Calvinist tell me these passages don't mean all people on earth, just all kinds (Jews and Gentiles). Interesting that in the Romans 3 passage you cite, it specifically gives this limitation (both Jews and Gentiles) and does not extend to all people on earth.

If it did, it would contradict other passages, like Acts 10:1-2 and this one:

Luke 1:6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Matthew 11:11
“Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Not to mention those in Hebrews 11.

C) If you wonder whether those gentiles that heard what Peter said were already regenerate, or whether they still needed to become regenerate, the the evidence provided by the outpouring of the charismatic gift of tongues on them, which absolutely shocked the believing Jews who had accompanied Peter to Cornelius' house, should be persuasive evidence of their not being spiritually dead.

-Turretinfan

Once they heard Peter's words in faith (Acts 10:42-44), they received the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by the gift of tongues, etc. Before this point, they were not saved/regenerated (Acts 11:13-14).

[Guest]

Calvinists fear Him, as a consequence of the new birth (regeneration), which is "Joh 3:8 "The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit."

I've always puzzled over why Calvinist interpret this verse this way.

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.”
So the wind has an effect on what it touches so that you can tell it, yet even though you can tell there is an effect, you can't understand what the effect is. These very things were said of/by Jesus (John 6:42, John 8:14 & 21)

"So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So (like Jesus) everyone born of the Spirit does things that effect the world but people in the world (while noticing you are doing something) do not know where you come from or where you are going because you are born of the Spirit and they are not. Those not regenerated cannot see that you are working for/in the kingdom of God

Arminians teach regeneration consequent to faith/fear/seeking/repenting etc.
That equates to God showing partiality to those who exercise faith/fear/seeking/repenting etc.

Yes, just as John 3 says:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Eternal life (born again/regeneration) comes to those who believe first, just as one had to look on the serpent Moses lifted up first before they were saved from death.

Do you see it?

Do you see my point?

Calvinists do not know why God chose them, it certainly was not anything to do with us, whether that be faith/fear/seeking/repenting etc.

Then God is a respecter of persons.

[Guest]

Turretinfan wrote:

"A) Steve, the fact remains that humility is a state of the heart, just like pride.
B) That fact is proven by Scripture, in the very passage of James that you referenced first in your list.
C) And that same passage in James shows that the difference between the proud and the humble is not meritorious choice, but grace. "But He giveth more grace" thereby overcoming "The spirit that dwelleth in us [which] lusteth to envy"
D) And if you had read the third chapter of James you would recognize that the deeds of men have their source in the heart of man, whether good or evil. After all, can a fig tree bear olive berries?
E) And you would also recognize also that James is drawing a distinction between natural wisdom that leads to envy and spiritual wisdom which brings forth the fruit of righteousness and comes from above."

I am not sure how these arguments advance your case.

A) Steve, the fact remains that humility is a state of the heart, just like pride.


True. Did anyone state otherwise? What does this have to do with our point? God shows preference to the humble. That is our point. It is not important to note the obvious, viz., that humility is a state of heart. It is a given that God looks on the heart.


B) That fact is proven by Scripture, in the very passage of James that you referenced first in your list.

Okay...I'm looking for an argument in this.

C) And that same passage in James shows that the difference between the proud and the humble is not meritorious choice, but grace. "But He giveth more grace" thereby overcoming "The spirit that dwelleth in us [which] lusteth to envy"


I agree it is not a meritorious choice, but the verse you quoted makes the opposite point, saying that God gives grace to those who are humble--not that He gives humility through grace.

D) And if you had read the third chapter of James you would recognize that the deeds of men have their source in the heart of man, whether good or evil. After all, can a fig tree bear olive berries?

Thanks for the heads up. Someday I shall get around to reading that chapter ;-)


E) And you would also recognize also that James is drawing a distinction between natural wisdom that leads to envy and spiritual wisdom which brings forth the fruit of righteousness and comes from above."

Yes, there is a difference. The wisdom of God is the wisdom He gives to those who ask Him (James 1:5). Our dispute is over what precedes the asking.

[Guest]

Cornelius feared God and was devout before he was "saved" (Acts 11:13-14).

Did Cornelius believe God before Peter arrived?

Why do you think Paul preface that series of comments with this:

Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written:

Paul is asking whether Jews are better than Gentiles because of the advantages of circumcision and answering that question in the negative.

Interesting that in the Romans 3 passage you cite, it specifically gives this limitation (both Jews and Gentiles) and does not extend to all people on earth.

Gentiles is a word for non-Jews. Jews and non-Jews is what it means.

Once they heard Peter's words in faith (Acts 10:42-44), they received the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by the gift of tongues, etc. Before this point, they were not saved/regenerated (Acts 11:13-14).

I refer to the explanation already provided above.

But tell me, did Cornelius send for Peter because he had faith in the God who gave him a vision, or because he doubted that God?

-Turretinfan

[Guest]

The Bible does not teach the "born again before faith" heresy. It teaches that these Gentiles purified their hearts by faith-Acts 15:9. Calvinists have it backwards, as usual, because of their unBiblical precommittment to a 16th century philosophy.