Does it Really Make a Difference?
no offence to either side on this subject but it would seem to my understanding of the scriptures that Calvin was correct in some aspects of his thinking (although i am no expert on him ). Obviously if God is eternal he is in the past, present and future and He Knows who are his! but we only live in the now and must keep watch over our souls lest we drift away and are shipwrecked by unrepentance and lost. Also if we have not sinned( of course all have except the scribes and pharisees) then we cannot come to repentance which is the first step of a conversion experiance, faith on God follows which embodies in the greek word pestis or pethio commitment, persuaded, believe, trust, obey, having made a freind, assurance faith, confidence, yeild, agree which leads us to baptisms. How can one say he did not have a conversion experiance? If he did not he should look at the parable of the sheep pen their is only one gate Jesus Christ and you KNOW when you go thru this gate. But you can walk away from God as warned in heb 6 so seek the LORD WHILE WE CAN !! praise god that we have this freedom to discuss our veiws also but do not let it go to arguing about words which misses the whole.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
You know, the difficulty in answering the question about the practical application of Calvinism and Arminianism is that it invariably becomes a subjective answer, in that most of us attribute a good deal of our walk with God and our spiritual growth to our understanding of how He saved us. Of course, this is quite natural, and I am no exception. I may be able to offer a somewhat unique perspective, because like Paidion, I was raised in one manner but then switched theological camps, although in the opposite direction.
I spent most of my early life in a nominally Christian home, where I was not really taught any theology. When I started going to church in college as a believer, I ended up at a mildly charismatic church that unfortunately did not hold to any creed or systematic theology, but in general, they were more "free-will" in their thinking, when they thought about these deeper issues at all. When I came across Steve Gregg's teachings (and I am glad that I did because I have learned a lot from him) one of the first series I wanted to listen to was God's Sovereignty and Man's Salvation. I had met some Calvinists in medical school who, to my narrow mind, seemed the opposite to me and therefore I viewed them with suspicion. I was very outgoing in my evangelism, for example, though my style was very much a street evangelism style and not well suited for the office or the classroom. The Calvinists were, by my judgment, not very outgoing in the manner I was, and so I assumed they were not interested in seeking the lost. I inferred it must be because of their view of God, and I blamed their Calvinism on what I saw as a defect in their walk with God. I now view that judgment as superficial and the inference as unfair.
After listening to Steve's tapes on Calvinism, it was a settled issue for me. I was definitely Arminian, and moreso, I did not like Calvinism. I did not even consider it a chance that I would ever be convinced of Calvinism. I read Robert Shank's books and that offered an even more scholarly examination of Arminianism and made me even more confident in my theological stance. From that point, I moved on to other topics that Steve taught on and made my way through most of his didactic Bible teachings. I did not continue to go over Calvinism since I felt I had given it adequate examination and settled the issue to my mind.
When I listened to Steve's Biblical Counseling for a Change series, I heard him reference Jay Adams' books. I decided to read a few of them, and I found that they had much good to say on the subject. Over time, I heard Steve mention another Calvinist, Ken Gentry, who has written a lot of books on eschatology. I read some of his books and again, I really benefited from them. Over the next 5 years, I started accumulating more books written by Calvinists on other subjects besides Calvinism. Over that period, I ceased having an allergic reaction to Calvinists. I came to a place in my understanding of the Scripture where I believed that God could have done what the Calvinists teach, but I did not believe that He did. In other words, I ceased having a philosophical or theodical complaint with Calvinism, but simply did not believe that it was taught in Scripture. Eventually, I decided to read some books by Calvinists on Calvinism, which I had never done before. The rest of the smaller details are probably repetitive since I have alluded to them in other posts, but needless to say, I became convinced that my view of grace and God's dealings with His world were in error.
Since I served God as an Arminian for almost 10 years, I understand the Arminian objections raised in defense of his/her character. At no time as an Arminian did I think well of myself, at no time did I think I was trying to earn God's salvation, at no time did I ever consider myself worthy of God's salvation, and I certainly was not attempting to glorify myself. I was not interested in raising man up in the least. Whether or not my theology at that time gave me a good and necessary reason for these Biblical beliefs is another matter to be discussed and settled with a more Berean spirit of dialgue than what I have seen posted here lately. But suffice it to say, I grew in the Lord and served the Lord through evangelism and charity to the poor as an Arminian. My life in Christ did not begin when I became a Calvinist.
However, in fairness and with respect to the Scriptures, I must say that much of what I read in Paidions post is also how I feel...about Reformed soteriology! I have a new boldness and confidence to present the gospel in an uncompromising manner, knowing that I need not water down the command to repent and believe (as I am sure many Arminians would also affirm) in order to cajole anyone. God will successfully draw out His elect through the preaching of the gospel, and I believe since He is in meticulous control of this world and runs its affairs, the outcome is up to Him.
I feel much more bold in defending the faith since reading Greg Bahnsen's books, which I again recommend on apologetics. You do not need to be a Calvinist to benefit from these materials. I work at a place with many intelligent men and women who call false knowledge true, and studying apologetics under Calvinists has given me confidence in God's wisdom and power to face these educated people and proclaim the truth. I can debate the leading evolutionist and win, not because I am smarter than him or her, but because God's word brings to nothing the wisdom of this age.
I feel more confidence in dealing with the problem of evil, which I do not find a problem anymore due to Calvinism. God, I believe, ordains all things, including cancer as Paidion mentioned. He decides how long I live and when and how I die. Since I live by His grace and I have already received infinitely more than I deserve, I understand that whatever befalls me, it is well with my soul and He has done no injustice. He glorifies Himself through His mercy and His judgments, and I can truly praise Him in all things since all things are under His control. Nothing is superfluous, surprising, or unnecessary in His plan.
I would like to comment on church history and the history of the Reformation, but I think we should start a new thread for that.
I would wager that many people feel the same way I do about their walk with God, and they do so because they love Christ and understand that we are to trust Him and obey Him and that He will not fail us. Whether one theology better explains and accounts for that is why we blog and disagree, because each of us feels that their view of God provides an explanation for our Christian life and hope. I think we all need to humbly shift the focus of our debating from whether you or I or a certain one loves or trusts God and focus instead on how each theological camp best explains the way all true Christians feel about God - that He is the Lord of all.
I spent most of my early life in a nominally Christian home, where I was not really taught any theology. When I started going to church in college as a believer, I ended up at a mildly charismatic church that unfortunately did not hold to any creed or systematic theology, but in general, they were more "free-will" in their thinking, when they thought about these deeper issues at all. When I came across Steve Gregg's teachings (and I am glad that I did because I have learned a lot from him) one of the first series I wanted to listen to was God's Sovereignty and Man's Salvation. I had met some Calvinists in medical school who, to my narrow mind, seemed the opposite to me and therefore I viewed them with suspicion. I was very outgoing in my evangelism, for example, though my style was very much a street evangelism style and not well suited for the office or the classroom. The Calvinists were, by my judgment, not very outgoing in the manner I was, and so I assumed they were not interested in seeking the lost. I inferred it must be because of their view of God, and I blamed their Calvinism on what I saw as a defect in their walk with God. I now view that judgment as superficial and the inference as unfair.
After listening to Steve's tapes on Calvinism, it was a settled issue for me. I was definitely Arminian, and moreso, I did not like Calvinism. I did not even consider it a chance that I would ever be convinced of Calvinism. I read Robert Shank's books and that offered an even more scholarly examination of Arminianism and made me even more confident in my theological stance. From that point, I moved on to other topics that Steve taught on and made my way through most of his didactic Bible teachings. I did not continue to go over Calvinism since I felt I had given it adequate examination and settled the issue to my mind.
When I listened to Steve's Biblical Counseling for a Change series, I heard him reference Jay Adams' books. I decided to read a few of them, and I found that they had much good to say on the subject. Over time, I heard Steve mention another Calvinist, Ken Gentry, who has written a lot of books on eschatology. I read some of his books and again, I really benefited from them. Over the next 5 years, I started accumulating more books written by Calvinists on other subjects besides Calvinism. Over that period, I ceased having an allergic reaction to Calvinists. I came to a place in my understanding of the Scripture where I believed that God could have done what the Calvinists teach, but I did not believe that He did. In other words, I ceased having a philosophical or theodical complaint with Calvinism, but simply did not believe that it was taught in Scripture. Eventually, I decided to read some books by Calvinists on Calvinism, which I had never done before. The rest of the smaller details are probably repetitive since I have alluded to them in other posts, but needless to say, I became convinced that my view of grace and God's dealings with His world were in error.
Since I served God as an Arminian for almost 10 years, I understand the Arminian objections raised in defense of his/her character. At no time as an Arminian did I think well of myself, at no time did I think I was trying to earn God's salvation, at no time did I ever consider myself worthy of God's salvation, and I certainly was not attempting to glorify myself. I was not interested in raising man up in the least. Whether or not my theology at that time gave me a good and necessary reason for these Biblical beliefs is another matter to be discussed and settled with a more Berean spirit of dialgue than what I have seen posted here lately. But suffice it to say, I grew in the Lord and served the Lord through evangelism and charity to the poor as an Arminian. My life in Christ did not begin when I became a Calvinist.
However, in fairness and with respect to the Scriptures, I must say that much of what I read in Paidions post is also how I feel...about Reformed soteriology! I have a new boldness and confidence to present the gospel in an uncompromising manner, knowing that I need not water down the command to repent and believe (as I am sure many Arminians would also affirm) in order to cajole anyone. God will successfully draw out His elect through the preaching of the gospel, and I believe since He is in meticulous control of this world and runs its affairs, the outcome is up to Him.
I feel much more bold in defending the faith since reading Greg Bahnsen's books, which I again recommend on apologetics. You do not need to be a Calvinist to benefit from these materials. I work at a place with many intelligent men and women who call false knowledge true, and studying apologetics under Calvinists has given me confidence in God's wisdom and power to face these educated people and proclaim the truth. I can debate the leading evolutionist and win, not because I am smarter than him or her, but because God's word brings to nothing the wisdom of this age.
I feel more confidence in dealing with the problem of evil, which I do not find a problem anymore due to Calvinism. God, I believe, ordains all things, including cancer as Paidion mentioned. He decides how long I live and when and how I die. Since I live by His grace and I have already received infinitely more than I deserve, I understand that whatever befalls me, it is well with my soul and He has done no injustice. He glorifies Himself through His mercy and His judgments, and I can truly praise Him in all things since all things are under His control. Nothing is superfluous, surprising, or unnecessary in His plan.
I would like to comment on church history and the history of the Reformation, but I think we should start a new thread for that.
I would wager that many people feel the same way I do about their walk with God, and they do so because they love Christ and understand that we are to trust Him and obey Him and that He will not fail us. Whether one theology better explains and accounts for that is why we blog and disagree, because each of us feels that their view of God provides an explanation for our Christian life and hope. I think we all need to humbly shift the focus of our debating from whether you or I or a certain one loves or trusts God and focus instead on how each theological camp best explains the way all true Christians feel about God - that He is the Lord of all.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Christ,
David
David
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_anothersteve
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- Location: Toronto, Canada
David wrote
Thank you for sharing David.
Amen.I think we all need to humbly shift the focus of our debating from whether you or I or a certain one loves or trusts God and focus instead on how each theological camp best explains the way all true Christians feel about God - that He is the Lord of all.
Thank you for sharing David.
Last edited by _MoGrace2u on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Avatar...My daughter and I standing on a glass floor. well over 1000 feet above ground at the CN Tower in Toronto...the tiny green dots beside my left foot are trees.
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_anothersteve
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:30 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Years ago I was at an informal home meeting and I was sitting between a newly convinced Calvinist and an Arminian (Lord help me!! 
). I figured this would be a good chance to ask some questions I had for both sides. I turned to the Calvinist and asked him why God would weep over evil men who die if they are destined for such a fate. He responded that he wasn’t sure (I’ve since heard the anthropomorfic arguments). I was satisfied with his honest response. I then turned to the Arminian, who may have thought I was on his “side” by now. I asked him about the apparent sovereign control that was exercised in the choosing of the 12 apostles, specifically mentioned in John’s gospel. Instead of directly answering my question he got very defensive, as if I was challenging his system of belief. I then tried to make it clear to him that I had no allegiance to either system and was merely asking a question for the sake of my own understanding. His response was to chide me for not being a mature Christian, because I had not “grounded” myself in either side.
This got me thinking, where in the bible does it say that you need to choose between these two systems of beliefs? They are both honourable attempts at trying to synchronize the content of scripture, but they are man’s attempts. What system of belief was required before Calvin or Arminius were alive?
I have since learned from historical theologian Alister McGrath that systems of theology did not become popular until the time of the reformation. This was a time when numerous movements were all trying to show that their particular system of belief was the best. Professor McGrath pointed out the importance of systematic theology (he was teaching a systematic theology course at the time after all) but inserted this caution. Any time you develop a system, with its logical conclusions, it’s like building a floor onto a building. Every logical conclusion you reach, you’re building another floor on the building and getting farther away from the foundation. The foundation in this analogy, of course, is the scripture itself.
Years later, I see truth to some of what the Calvinist’s are saying, but am still unconvinced of their system as a whole. I still have my questions about Arminianism. I guess I’m not mature yet.
I appreciate and enjoy reading a good explanation of each position. Much like what David wrote in this thread. I also enjoy discussing the issue. I do not enjoy partisan style debates. I find them, for the most part, unprofitable.
). I figured this would be a good chance to ask some questions I had for both sides. I turned to the Calvinist and asked him why God would weep over evil men who die if they are destined for such a fate. He responded that he wasn’t sure (I’ve since heard the anthropomorfic arguments). I was satisfied with his honest response. I then turned to the Arminian, who may have thought I was on his “side” by now. I asked him about the apparent sovereign control that was exercised in the choosing of the 12 apostles, specifically mentioned in John’s gospel. Instead of directly answering my question he got very defensive, as if I was challenging his system of belief. I then tried to make it clear to him that I had no allegiance to either system and was merely asking a question for the sake of my own understanding. His response was to chide me for not being a mature Christian, because I had not “grounded” myself in either side. This got me thinking, where in the bible does it say that you need to choose between these two systems of beliefs? They are both honourable attempts at trying to synchronize the content of scripture, but they are man’s attempts. What system of belief was required before Calvin or Arminius were alive?
I have since learned from historical theologian Alister McGrath that systems of theology did not become popular until the time of the reformation. This was a time when numerous movements were all trying to show that their particular system of belief was the best. Professor McGrath pointed out the importance of systematic theology (he was teaching a systematic theology course at the time after all) but inserted this caution. Any time you develop a system, with its logical conclusions, it’s like building a floor onto a building. Every logical conclusion you reach, you’re building another floor on the building and getting farther away from the foundation. The foundation in this analogy, of course, is the scripture itself.
Years later, I see truth to some of what the Calvinist’s are saying, but am still unconvinced of their system as a whole. I still have my questions about Arminianism. I guess I’m not mature yet.
I appreciate and enjoy reading a good explanation of each position. Much like what David wrote in this thread. I also enjoy discussing the issue. I do not enjoy partisan style debates. I find them, for the most part, unprofitable.
Last edited by _MoGrace2u on Sat May 05, 2007 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Avatar...My daughter and I standing on a glass floor. well over 1000 feet above ground at the CN Tower in Toronto...the tiny green dots beside my left foot are trees.
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_anothersteve
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:30 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
duplicate post
Last edited by _MoGrace2u on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Avatar...My daughter and I standing on a glass floor. well over 1000 feet above ground at the CN Tower in Toronto...the tiny green dots beside my left foot are trees.