The meaning of Matt. 23:37

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:56 am

I emailed the opening post to a friend and here is what he said:

The verse must be interpreted in its primary context. I do not think Arminian-Open Theists are claiming its primary context is about individual salvation issues after the cross. One can make an application by way of principle though.

The verse does illustrate that the hyper-sovereignty, meticulous control, omnicausality assumptions of God's will are deductive, hyper-Calvinist and flawed. If God's will can be rejected or resisted in any sense, than saying God's will cannot be rejected is false. The fact that there is a hell full of rebellious creatures, Satan, evil, etc. is sufficient proof that God's will is not always done, by His sovereign choice. This leads to issues of compatibilism vs incompatibilism/free will, etc.

Irresistible grace is an oxymoron. Love and grace can be rejected or God is guilty of causation/coercion negating human responsibility. Monergism vs synergism is a related discussion. Just because man responds in repentant faith to the convincing and convicting of the Spirit does not mean we provide or initiate salvation. Receiving a free gift is not a meritorious work. Confusing the grounds and conditions of salvation also leads to Calvinistic confusion on the issue.

Double predestination limits the love of God and makes His holiness arbitrary. We cannot elevate a wrong view on sovereignty above His holiness and love. Reconciliation involves two parties and is not unilateral.

So, the primary concept of the passage relates to Jerusalem/Israel, not NT believers/unbelievers. We do not need to quibble about the interpretation, but may differ as to the application by way of illustrative principle. It does illustrate, though (cf. Lk. 7:30). that God's will can be rejected. Likewise, the Holy Spirit can be quenched and grieved. God was heart-broken after the Fall of man. It was not desired, intended, nor planned by God.

God is able and willing to save all men based on the finished, efficacious work of Christ. The reason all are not saved is because love and grace can be rejected, by God's sovereign choice to value freedom, love, relationship over brute control. Man, not God, is culpable if they perish.

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:44 am

Hard to resist, but I will! Too many posts for me at the moment to respond to.

Mark

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:02 pm

I already told SoaringEagle in a PM, but I have read his post, and I do plan to respond. I haven't had much time for posting in the last week, and there's a couple other posts I want to get to first. I just want to let everyone know that I haven't abandoned the thread.

Anyway, thanks again for posting, SE.

Post by **_Les Wright** » Thu May 17, 2007 9:17 pm

Jugulum,

1.) Who was Jesus literally speaking to when he spoke this verse, and what was the conversation about?
-> Ethnic Jews who did not receive Jesus as their Messiah
2.) Who is "you"--who is Jerusalem?--and who is "your children"? Is there a difference? Are they supposed to be distinct groups, or is it all just the same group?
-> I think Jerusalem is just Isreal personified and her children are the individual Jews who comprise ethnic Israel.
3.) In what way was God's desire to gather "your children" resisted? What was done, by whom?
-> Ethnic Jews have had a long history of resisting and rebelling against God. This begins almost immediately in their national history. The idea is that many Jews resisted God all throughout history, but the entire time, God was trying to gather them to Himself.

I hope you don't see my post as Jew bashing. Is isn't meant to be. Many non-ethnic Jews also resist God's grace.

my 2 cents
Les

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu May 17, 2007 9:50 pm

Les Wright wrote:I hope you don't see my post as Jew bashing. Is isn't meant to be. Many non-ethnic Jews also resist God's grace.

Thanks for responding! Nope, I don't see it as Jew bashing. I am curious, though, to know where you get your answers from the text. I mean, I can understand your answers as somewhat reasonable possibilities, just taking Matt 23:37 by itself. But I'm curious if you can read through the entire chapter of Matt. 23, get to verse 37, and really come away from it still thinking that Jerusalem means Israel and "your children" means "the individual Israelites".

I have a couple other thoughts, but I'll save those for when I can write a more full post.