Reformed Theology

[Guest]

Jess,

(Homer, I hope you don't mind my borrowing your analogy. It works well with the one caveat being that buying a ticket is not a meritorious work)

No problem; just my two-cents worth (worth price I charged).

[Guest]

Do you believe someone can lose their salvation?

Hello again Robin, I believe that one can have their faith destroyed (2 Tim 2:18) or made shipwreck (1 Tim 1:19). One can be alienated from Christ and fall from Grace (Gal 5:4) and broken off from the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom 11:21)

So I wouldn't say you can lose your salvation, because my salvation does not rest in something in me, as if I were the source of it. Instead, I believe we are saved by being attached to Christ, who provides life eternal. Breaking that bond breaks the link between myself and Christ, the one whom gave me life.

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Is faith spiritual or natural?

When a man puts faith in Christ does he;
- do so with his own intellect, ability, so faith stems or originates in him
- do so because God brought him into a neutral state where he has the ability or real free will to believe or not
- do so because God calls him, regenerates him, irresistable grace is applied causing him to believe
- or because of something else??

Robin

Paul says that faith comes by hearing the message. The gospel comes to us through our natural senses, and the conviction and revelation of it's truth is confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

Paul states:

2 Cor 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

If one takes a Refromed view or not, a choice is still made on mans part. So I believe faith is simply believing the message heard. So the faith does not originate with the person, since the person had to hear the message first before they could make a judgement in the matter.

[Guest]

Jess,

Im still looking over your post, but have questions to help me in understanding this.

It sounds like to me that what has been predestined is not the individuals who make up the Church, but more of the idea of the Church (like the plane analogy with no passengers, the plane predestined). Is this true? Dane and I talked about this also. But what about you?

Next it seems that people can lose their salvation from what your explaining. To remain in Christ or not to remain. I have always understood that those who didn't remain were not believers. They tasted of the goodness of the Lord (Heb) but later turned away because they were not of us. They merely sat amongst the body of Christ. But it sounds very much like ylur saying they were a part of the body, the Church, were believers or are believers as long as they remain in the plane or in Christ. But then one decides to leave the body so him who was once in Christ spiritually, is no longer in Christ. This sounds to me like one can lose their salvation they once had only found in Christ.

Last, Eph 1:13 "you also" I understand what your saying here, but isn't it possible that when Paul said "you also" he said this because just before he said "in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ" possibly meaning the multiple believers before Christ's ascension or even before there was a Church in Ephesus. So then the first to believe were the very first, lets say before the Ephesian believers, and the later who believed who Paul says "you also" is the Ephesians but maybe all believers after the very first believers?

Robin

[Guest]

All,

I do believe God knows all, omniscience, and do believe He had a plan of salvation for His Church before the world was made, but I also believe His Church includes individuals and the two cannot be separated.

Either we have,

Plan 1

1. The Plan of salvation for the Church, God thought of before the world was, 2. The Church is made up of individual persons who believe and is not just a plan or idea. 3. Therefore individuals who make up the Church are predestined and are a part of the plan of salvation before the world was.

or

Plan 2

1. The Plan of salvation for the Church, God thought of before the world was, 2. The Church is just an idea or plan, not individual persons, 3. People believe the gospel and enter into the Church. (But the people were not predestined, it was the plan or idea.


I think that God thought of a salvation plan from the very beginning which included His Church (individuals) so He predestined us before the world was. Eph 1 & 2 the "us' or "we" are the individuals predestined, yes there was a plan of salvation before the world was, but it included the Church- individuals whom God chosen. I think I am lead to this conclusion because in scripture the Church is individual members. Am I missing something here?

Rob

[Guest]

Hey Rob,

I fear that I may have not been as clear as I should have in my earlier posts; leading you down some rabbit trails that don't take anyone anywhere.

I think that God thought of a salvation plan from the very beginning which included His Church (individuals) so He predestined us before the world was. Eph 1 & 2 the "us' or "we" are the individuals predestined, yes there was a plan of salvation before the world was, but it included the Church- individuals whom God chosen. I think I am lead to this conclusion because in scripture the Church is individual members. Am I missing something here?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty certain that most would agree that the Church is made up of individuals. I don't think that's the issue.

I think it was Homer who used the analogy of the airline flight to Paris. I think that was a pretty good picture of how I see things too. The flight is "predestined" to go to Paris, and any passengers who get on the flight will get there.

I also gave an analogy, which has its weak elements, but still kind of paints a picture of how I see this issue. The analogy was that of a benefactor leaving money to a church youth group. The group is "predestined" to get the benefit of the money. Those individuals in the group will benefit - those who don't join won't. The benefactor is not predestining individuals to be in or out of the group - he is just providing a benefit for all who chose to belong.

I agree with you that the "us" and "we" in Eph 1 & 2 are individuals - who make up the Church. In my opinion, Paul is telling them (us too) that we have been chosen to be "holy and blameless" and that we have been predestined "to adoption."

Using Homer's illustration in Eph 1:4-5 "holy and blameless" and "to adoption" are the destinations of the "flight." Only those individuals who are in the Church (flight) will reap those rewards.

Anyway ... that's how I understand it ...

peace,

dane

[Guest]

Thanx Dane

I didn't want to debate over a rabbit trail.

Robin