JeffWall wrote:Now the very original question by Jason was this. " icor 2:14 " so it does not seem as if paul is aying that you cannot recieve the message of salvation untill after you get the spirit, it seems hei saying inorder to understand the wisdom of God you need thehelp of the dpirit to understand the "solid Food", not that you cannot choose God at all". That was, i believe Jasons conclusion to the whole thing. now hes mainly in chap 3 here concerning babes. well here it is not speaking to salvation. also not speaking to babes needing help from the holy spirit to understand solid food, and not dealling with choosing God. chap 3 verses 1 and following just shows that these peiople should have been alot farther in their obedience and growth than they were.
Remember, there are no chapter divisions in the original text. You can't start at 1 Cor 3 out of the context of 1 Cor 1&2. There is a complete thought here. My point would be that Paul called saved Christians carnal, and taught them only "Chirist and Him crucified" and that "(1Co 2:6) Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom", but " not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away."
So the wisdom Paul imparts is not worldy but Spiritual, yet Paul didn't teach these people these Spiritual things. Yet they were saved and had the Spirit. The ultimate point is that a carnally minded man can recieve "Chirist and Him crucified".
JeffWall wrote:
Guest says that natural men does not refer to all non bellievers, it seems anyway, if im wrong please say, doesnt paul refer to the natural man as the man without the spirit. definatly the natural man is used in contrast as to those who do have the spirit.
When Paul says "brothers" and goes on to say "I could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh". How could Paul not address fellow Christian brothers (who must have the Holy Spirit to be a brother) as Spiritual? Even though Paul said they were not "spiritual" they were considered "babes in Christ".
Here is another passage about Fleshly and Spiritual living:
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
Again, Paul is talking to believers.
JeffWall wrote:
i need further study on this but the context generally points to men not indwelt by the spirit therefore unsaved. Jason said, the gospel of christ is the power of salvation..amen. the verse doesnt mention regeneration so why bring it up. so what are you saying. does faith save you or does the gospel. it also doesnt mention faith. i
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation
to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Belief is what faith is (Rom 4). Belief is the condition and the way to access the Grace of God (Rom 5:2)
JeffWall wrote:
It simply says that the gospel is tthe power unto salvation...it is a very vital in salvation. doesnt address regeneration.
Define regeneration.
JeffWall wrote:
After reading all and appreciating it here is where i am at. several scriptures say....believe and you shall be saved, have therefore been justified by faith, whosoever will believe, who so shall call upon the name.......etc. ok. all these verses do not address a process whereby one came to faith, believing, calling upon the name. they just say that whoever believes. it doesnt talk about the process of coming into that state.
It doesn't?
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you,
which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2
and by which you are being saved,
if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
It seems like when the Gospel is preched, it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone...conditional statement coming...who believes (Romans 1:16)
1 Cor 15 mentions that you must recieve the Gospel, that's an action on your part, correct?
JeffWall wrote:
did you believe as a result of your own efforts.
Yes.
Since the belief I have is a response (action) on my part.
JeffWall wrote:
did the holy spirit and the father help out but you refuse, or did an outside force take you against your fallin will and make you believe. if i have 250,000 dollars in my savings account you cant just assume i earned it all myself. may a rich uncle gave me 250,000 and i put it in the savings account. here is where i believe the third option is most valid scripturally. The process is the father granting, the holy spirit drawing, being made alive in christ, the conviction work of the holy spirit. before the foundation of the world i chose you, before the twins neither did anything good nor bad inorder that Gods choice might stand. i will bring all men unto myself. they will all come. my sheep, the called out ones. i will loose none. it seems that in all the major doctrines of the holy spirit that the object is always passive to the action. grace and faith and THAT NOT OF YOURSELF.
You've mentioned quite a lot of passages here. Many of these have been addressed already in other threads (as it talkes a long time to type up responses).
First, yes God draws all men:
John 12:32
"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
God's will can be resisted: (Luke 7:30, Acts 7:51)
Your reference to Jacob and Esau is not in reference to election to salvation but that Jacob would be the father of the 12 tribes and Esau was not.
Your reference to none being lost:
Joh 18:6 When Jesus said to them, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.
Joh 18:7 So he asked them again, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."
Joh 18:8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go."
Joh 18:9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: "Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one."
Second, one was lost:
Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost
except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
So you can't argue that all who come are eternally, unconditionally secure because Judas came, Jesus picked him, yet he was lost.
Grace and faith referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith is not in view because faith is not a work, the thought Paul is addressing is that some think that works of the Jewish law can earn salvation. So Paul shows that Grace is through faith (not works).
Paul clearly demonstrates that faith is not a work:
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who
does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness
Rom 9:32 Why?
Because they did not pursue it by faith,
but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
We should persue by faith, not our works. If our faith was a work, Paul would be contradicting himself everywere.
JeffWall wrote:
without Gods interveining in our lives i dont believe we can be saved.
Amen! But this does not equate to man not making a choice, since belief is a choice.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)