Spinoffs from Paidion's.
Calvinist View
1. You cannot look for it.
2. If you found it: No, you didn't!
3. If you’ve got it, you potentially really do.
4. If you lose it, become an Arminian!
Arminian View
1. If you look for it, God looked for you first!
2. If you find Him, you’ve received it.
3. If you’ve got Him, you must stay with Him.
4. If you stray from Him, Repent and Stop Sinning!
Slight variations perhaps?
Welcome to:
The First Church of the Definately-Maybe Saved & Possibly-Elect!!!
Calvinism vs Arminianism re "Salvation"
Hello everyone,
This is not a direct response to the afore mentioned witicisms but it fits best under this Cal vs Arm re Salvation. It's a clip from a James White debate with some Catholic apologist. I'm wondering if this point came up in Steve's debate & perhaps I missed it.
Thanks to all for letting this be a fun, challenging yet gracious place.
Karna
1 Jn 2:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJoSyte9 ... re=related
This is not a direct response to the afore mentioned witicisms but it fits best under this Cal vs Arm re Salvation. It's a clip from a James White debate with some Catholic apologist. I'm wondering if this point came up in Steve's debate & perhaps I missed it.
Thanks to all for letting this be a fun, challenging yet gracious place.
Karna
1 Jn 2:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJoSyte9 ... re=related
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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I listened to the clip. Just wondering ---- to which point do you refer?I'm wondering if this point came up in Steve's debate & perhaps I missed it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Christ's ability to save to the uttermost
I'm wondering if the Hebrews 7:25 issue of Jesus saving to the uttermost those who come to him in faith. I think the catholic man makes a good point that it takes faith on our part to participate in Christ's saving work. He quotes 2 Tim 2:11-12 making the point that those who disown Christ will be disowned. I think this contradicts the "once saved always saved" folks. It's interesting that James White posted this clip in support of himself when I see it as serving to show the opposite, that he responds less than professional, immature or whatever, not the catholic guy.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Karnab,
The point you make sort of begs the question. The calvinist does not deny that faith is required. A major difference is that they believe only the elect will have faith. The elect are not those who figure it out on their own (pardon my slam on arm'ism) but on God's sov. right to select who he will have mercy on and who he will skin alive for ever.
I actually agree with the monergists on these grounds. So I too would argue against the catholic just as I do the arm.
However Talbott raises an argument that I find compelling which flys in the face of everyone (except the Universalist).
1) God wants to save all men (God is love)
2) God can save all men (God boudn all men to disobed. to have mercy on all)
3) most people end up being skinned alive for all eternity.
The calvinist denys point 1: God does not want all men to be saved
the arm denys point 2: God can save all men
the universlist denys point 3: God will damn most people to hell to torture forever.
But the U and the A stand together in the fact that they both embrace the doctrine that God's character is loving and good. The calvinist says if the Bible says God is evil then he is evil (hyperbole). In other words the calvinist treats the text literally and says if God shows favoritism then he does.
MY COMPLAINT ON ANOTHER THREAD IS SCRIPTURE SAYS GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM.
The issue of who can have faith and who cannot is the real question between the A and the C.
Of course you can raise up certain verses which say "choose" or "remain" or "persevere" and say see it's conditioned upon the person to respond or remain.
The calvinist see it that it is unconditional upon the man since he does nothing to save himself. It is ONLY CONDITIONED upon God who it the ONLY one who can save a man.
Aug
The point you make sort of begs the question. The calvinist does not deny that faith is required. A major difference is that they believe only the elect will have faith. The elect are not those who figure it out on their own (pardon my slam on arm'ism) but on God's sov. right to select who he will have mercy on and who he will skin alive for ever.
I actually agree with the monergists on these grounds. So I too would argue against the catholic just as I do the arm.
However Talbott raises an argument that I find compelling which flys in the face of everyone (except the Universalist).
1) God wants to save all men (God is love)
2) God can save all men (God boudn all men to disobed. to have mercy on all)
3) most people end up being skinned alive for all eternity.
The calvinist denys point 1: God does not want all men to be saved
the arm denys point 2: God can save all men
the universlist denys point 3: God will damn most people to hell to torture forever.
But the U and the A stand together in the fact that they both embrace the doctrine that God's character is loving and good. The calvinist says if the Bible says God is evil then he is evil (hyperbole). In other words the calvinist treats the text literally and says if God shows favoritism then he does.
MY COMPLAINT ON ANOTHER THREAD IS SCRIPTURE SAYS GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM.
The issue of who can have faith and who cannot is the real question between the A and the C.
Of course you can raise up certain verses which say "choose" or "remain" or "persevere" and say see it's conditioned upon the person to respond or remain.
The calvinist see it that it is unconditional upon the man since he does nothing to save himself. It is ONLY CONDITIONED upon God who it the ONLY one who can save a man.
Aug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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