Calvinism and Prayer

[Guest]

Bob wrote:

Through prayer God involved you in the recovery of your granddaughter. He gave you and those around you a very great gift to be personally involved in the display of His glory. He could have healed her apart from your prayer, but you would have been the loser in that case. Instead, He gave your prayer as a gift to teach you to depend on Him in your darkest hour.

sorry, Bob, but that's a lot of hogwash. it reduces prayer to simply an intellectual exercise, so that we can be fooled into thinking God really listens to us. In other words, if I pray for someone to be healed, and they are, then it wasnt really God hearing me and acting- I just happened to guess right. and if i pray and it doesnt happen, oh well it was just God's will anyway. That is not how prayer is portrayed in the Bible.

Wow TK, how do you get any of that from what I said? I've consistenly spoken of prayer as a precious gift. You seem downright bitter.

This one is interesting:

if i pray and it doesnt happen, oh well it was just God's will anyway

Of course, that is not my position, but nevertheless, I'm curious as to what you offer? What is your explanation for "unanswered" prayer?

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

How is prayer a precious gift, if it isn't doing anything (other than making us feel good if what we pray for happens to happen)? Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding what you are saying. You seem to be suggesting that God "humors" us by sometimes jiving up our prayer with his predetermined action, thereby giving us the idea (albeit illusory) that our prayer made a hill of beans of difference.

No, I am not bitter at all. Just a little surprised you actually believe what you posted.

In regards to something being God's will, obviously it depends on the prayer. Every thing that happens isnt necessarily God's will. That was the point I was trying to make.

TK

[Guest]

How is prayer a precious gift, if it isn't doing anything (other than making us feel good if what we pray for happens to happen)? Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding what you are saying. You seem to be suggesting that God "humors" us by sometimes jiving up our prayer with his predetermined action, thereby giving us the idea (albeit illusory) that our prayer made a hill of beans of difference.

TK, I don't think you're being fair with me. I give you a careful analysis of my view of prayer, and you just mock it. It seems that you hold that prayer must be able to change God and makes Him do something He wouldn't otherwise do.

No, I am not bitter at all. Just a little surprised you actually believe what you posted.

I'm far from alone. You need to get out more.

In regards to something being God's will, obviously it depends on the prayer. Every thing that happens isnt necessarily God's will. That was the point I was trying to make.

If something happens that isn't within God's will, why is that? Is He powerless to prevent it?

I'm eagerly awaiting your own views on prayer.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Bshow,

Perhaps you can answer some of my questions. I suppose that you have some who are close to you who are lost, whether it be your friends or family, right? If this is true, and you do pray for them faithfully, can you guarantee that you aren't just waisting your time? After all, you have no assurance as to what God's will actually is for them; He might intend to save them, or He might not, and you may just be praying for Him to open their hearts and grant them repentance and faith for nothing. For example:

1 John 5:14-15
Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

So bshow, if you are in fact faithfully praying for some of those who just aren't on heaven's reservation list, how exactly can you have confidence that God is even hearing you and that you have the petitions that you ask of Him, if you aren't even sure if it's His will to save them in the first place?

[Guest]

If you see prayer as a way to change God, or to get Him to do something He otherwise wouldn't do, it's like looking down the wrong end of a telescope. I believe that prayer is the means God uses to get us involved in what He is doing. We aren't telling Him anything He doesn't already know (Mt. 6:8 ). It is we that are changed by prayer, not him.

I think Moses persuaded God to do something that it appeared He would not have otherwise done (Exodus 32). For instance, everything that God does is according to the counsel of His own will(Eph. 1:11). Some of the things that He does (by His own sovereign choice) is influenced by our prayers, which is also according to His counsel. This is the type of world God has chosen to be, and this is God voluntarily depending on us and working with us to bring His kingdom to come and will to be done where where satan's will is done (2 Tim. 2:26/Luke 10:18 ). However, God is not totally limited by us, for some of the things He does is irrespective of the influence He has allowed us to have on that which He does. In fact, as far as I know, neither the Open Theist nor the Arminain deny that God could unilaterally intervene when and how He wants to. To be sure, both say He does act in this way.

This brings to the surface two motifs. God sometimes acts unilaterally, and sometimes He acts in response to our holy petitions and desires that are birthed through intimacy with Him and His Word. Is there anything written in the bible where it says God does not want us to be part of the cooperative process and to use us to help others and thus shape the future for His glory? 2 Cor. 6:1 talks about God working together with His children. From what I see Scripture portraying, God wants fellowship with us as children. This is more important to Him than just being an aloof providential Creator. If the Calvinism view of prayer is true, and God is just decreeing our prayers to be the means of the ends that He has also decreed, then true reciprocal love relationships between the Tri-personal God and His redeemed children are just an illusion. It seems like this type of relationship exists, at least on the surface, but underneath it all everything instead follows some sort of prewritten script (like a play) in that no choice could have been made other than what was made (this would not be following the script). This is why people have such a hard time embracing Calvinistic determinism, because they see Calvinism putting God's freedom, love, goodness and relationality in the backround of the portrait of God's heart while God's power and holiness is put as the center of God. Yet when they read the bible, they do not see this type of depiction of God nor do they see God exercising this type of sovereignty.

I'd also check this out for some refreshing thoughts on prayer.

[Guest]

Bob,

You wrote:

It seems that you hold that prayer must be able to change God and makes Him do something He wouldn't otherwise do.

Has it ever crossed your mind that God might have more than one option in His will? It seems strange to me to think He would not. Can you see that He might have it in His will that a young man might choose among several options for his career, or among several young women for a wife? When we are admonished to marry only a Christian, do you think there is only one particular option (person) that is in God's will for us, or do you think any number of good Christians would be within His will as a spouse? And do you think it strange that God might answer a young man's prayer about a wife or a career, granting a request that was among a range of options?

What is your view of this text:

James 5:16-17 (New King James Version)

16b. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

It should be noted according to Strong's dictionary that the Greek word ischuo, translated "avails", denotes "to be strong, to prevail, and indicates a more forceful strength or ability than dunamai.....(i.e. 'prevails greatly'). Verse 17 seems pointless if the prayer of Elijah had no affect on the outcome.

I understand one of the hallmarks of the reformation as the belief in the perspicuity of the scriptures. Our Lord's teachings, and those of the apostles, as in James' statement above, seem to rather plainly teach us that our prayers can affect the outcome of events. Many texts could be cited. It seems the Calvinist must bend and twist the scriptures to fit a paradigm.

[Guest]

Bob-

My view of prayer is rather simple: "For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." (Mk. 11:23-24).

I didnt mean to misrepresent your view; perhaps I still misunderstand it. In the example of Homer's granddaughter, you said:

Does that mean that your prayer caused or motivated God to heal your granddaughter? Could that not be a post hoc fallacy? I think you give yourself too much credit...

To me at least, that seems like a rather defeatist attitude.

Then, you said:

Through prayer God involved you in the recovery of your granddaughter. He gave you and those around you a very great gift to be personally involved in the display of His glory. He could have healed her apart from your prayer, but you would have been the loser in that case. Instead, He gave your prayer as a gift to teach you to depend on Him in your darkest hour. Your granddaughter's illness didn't "just happen"; He had a purpose in it, and part of the purpose involved you.

Again, perhaps I am just missing this, but you seem to be saying that Homer's prayer didnt change anything, but because he prayed, and God chose to heal his granddaughter (which he was going to do anyway), Homer was taught to rely on God. You seem to state that by "answering" Homer's prayer(or allowing Homer to participate in the process), Homer is being "conditioned" to rely on God in the future. I suspect Homer prays because he thinks God will listen, as do I.

TK

[Guest]

Bshow,

Perhaps you can answer some of my questions. I suppose that you have some who are close to you who are lost, whether it be your friends or family, right?

Yes.

If this is true, and you do pray for them faithfully, can you guarantee that you aren't just waisting your time?

Please define "guarantee" and "wasting my time?"

I don't know the future (or even the present, for that matter). I don't know who is truly saved, who isn't, who will be, who won't be. I don't look at it that way. God says that I can bring my petitions to Him, and that He knows what I will ask before I even ask it. Again, I see prayer as a gift, as a communion with God over the concerns of my heart as He conforms me to His will for my life. I see a burden for the lost and prayer over that burden as part of the means God uses to reach the lost.

After all, you have no assurance as to what God's will actually is for them; He might intend to save them, or He might not, and you may just be praying for Him to open their hearts and grant them repentance and faith for nothing.

Not if prayer itself is a gift.

But let's turn the tables. When you pray for the lost, what are you asking God to do? To open their hearts? But that would be a violation of their wills! If God changes someone who hates Him into someone who loves Him against their will, isn't that just pulling the strings on a puppet? Doesn't He need their permission to soften their hearts? And isn't God already doing everything He can to save each and every individual? Are you praying for Him to try harder? What more do you want Him to do?

For example:

1 John 5:14-15
Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

You and I only know God's will insofar as He has revealed it to us. He hasn't published a list of who will repent and believe and who won't. We are called to preach the gospel to all men and pray for all men, and it is a privilege to do it.

Does every individual that you pray for repent and believe? If so, I'd like to send my prayer list to you. If not, how do you explain it? Your prayers aren't outside of God's will are they?

So bshow, if you are in fact faithfully praying for some of those who just aren't on heaven's reservation list, how exactly can you have confidence that God is even hearing you and that you have the petitions that you ask of Him, if you aren't even sure if it's His will to save them in the first place?

I think I've addressed this above.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Bob-

My view of prayer is rather simple: "For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." (Mk. 11:23-24).

You need to do more than quote a verse. You need to tell me what it means to you.

Can you pray yourself a new Cadillac if you don't doubt?

I didnt mean to misrepresent your view; perhaps I still misunderstand it. In the example of Homer's granddaughter, you said:

Does that mean that your prayer caused or motivated God to heal your granddaughter? Could that not be a post hoc fallacy? I think you give yourself too much credit...

To me at least, that seems like a rather defeatist attitude.

How so? How do you answer my question to Homer: did his prayer cause or motivate God to heal his granddaughter, something He would not otherwise have done?

Then, you said:

Through prayer God involved you in the recovery of your granddaughter. He gave you and those around you a very great gift to be personally involved in the display of His glory. He could have healed her apart from your prayer, but you would have been the loser in that case. Instead, He gave your prayer as a gift to teach you to depend on Him in your darkest hour. Your granddaughter's illness didn't "just happen"; He had a purpose in it, and part of the purpose involved you.

Again, perhaps I am just missing this, but you seem to be saying that Homer's prayer didnt change anything, but because he prayed, and God chose to heal his granddaughter (which he was going to do anyway), Homer was taught to rely on God. You seem to state that by "answering" Homer's prayer(or allowing Homer to participate in the process), Homer is being "conditioned" to rely on God in the future. I suspect Homer prays because he thinks God will listen, as do I.

TK

I stand by my original statements.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Bob wrote:

How so? How do you answer my question to Homer: did his prayer cause or motivate God to heal his granddaughter, something He would not otherwise have done?

Yes! Of course!


TK