Can God know the Future?

[TK]

RND wrote:

For example, when Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham said, "God would provide His own sacrifice" before it was even declared to Abraham by God. This was recounted by Moses roughly 1,500 years before God actually provided His own sacrifice. That indicates to be that God "knew" what He would be doing later.

it may be a bit of a stretch to say that Abraham was talking about jesus when he said those words- here's the passage:

But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

I understand and agree that this whole episode pre-figures the death and sacrifice of Jesus, but that is different from saying Abraham was predicting this when he said that God would provide a lamb for the burnt offering. i think abraham was talking about what was directly in front of him, namely the possibility that he would have to kill his son and his hope(faith) that he would not have to do so.

TK

[RND]

I understand and agree that this whole episode pre-figures the death and sacrifice of Jesus, but that is different from saying Abraham was predicting this when he said that God would provide a lamb for the burnt offering. i think abraham was talking about what was directly in front of him, namely the possibility that he would have to kill his son and his hope(faith) that he would not have to do so.

TK

TK,

It was Abraham's faith that led him to believe that "God would provide the sacrifice" so Abraham wouldn't have to kill his son. Faith led Abraham to trust God. Therefore, while it is obvious a story that prefigures the death of Christ it is also a story that clearly shows the deep level of Abraham's faith. Even up to the moment that Abraham was about to sacrifice his son Abraham had "faith" that God would provide a sacrifice. Notice God's words:

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Abraham's faith was so great that he would not even withhold his only son from God and yet in that same faith Abraham knew that the Lord would provide the sacrifice.

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote in reply to Sean:

Could not Josiah's parents have known about the prophecy and named their child "Josiah"? Could not Josiah have been raised to follow Yahweh's instructions, so that when he became king, he destroyed the high places? He knew that someone named "Josiah" was in the prophecy and he knowingly fulfilled its terms, by burning the bones, etc.

But we read:

2 Kings 21:19-22 (New King James Version)

19. Amon was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned two years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Meshullemeth the daughter of Haruz of Jotbah. 20. And he did evil in the sight of the LORD, as his father Manasseh had done. 21. So he walked in all the ways that his father had walked; and he served the idols that his father had served, and worshiped them. 22. He forsook the LORD God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.

Are you sure you want to make the argument that the wicked Amon, Josiah's father, named him in order to fulfill the prophecy and raised up the boy "to follow Yahweh's instructions"? Quite a reach there, don't you think?

[RV]

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (John 16:13)

Help me out here Paidion, how does is the Spirit going to tell them things (or disclose) to come if the future is not able to be know?

So is the gift of prophecy actually the gift of guessing?

[RND]

So is the gift of prophecy actually the gift of guessing?

Reminds me of the "Fool the guesser at Magic Mountain!"

[Paidion]

God clearly knew that sin was a possibility when He created both His heavenly beings and mankind with free will. And just as predictably God had a plan "just in case."

If you omit the quotation marks around "just in case", then I fully agree.

God knows all possible choices which man could make, and He has an appropriate response to many of the choices which man does in fact make.

Though God indeed had the plan before the foundation of the earth for the Lamb of God to be slain, this in no way affected the free will of Adam and Eve. They could have chosen not to disobey, in which case, God would have had a different way of dealing with mankind.

[Paidion]

Are you sure you want to make the argument that the wicked Amon, Josiah's father, named him in order to fulfill the prophecy and raised up the boy "to follow Yahweh's instructions"?

It seems unlikely that Amon would have done that (although wicked people have their moments when they do some good things). Perhaps Josiah's mother served Yahweh, who followed His instructions by naming him "Josiah".

[RV]

Hi Paidion,

Your thoughts on this:

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (John 16:13)

Help me out here Paidion, how does is the Spirit going to tell them things (or disclose) to come if the future is not able to be know?

So is the gift of prophecy actually the gift of guessing?

[Paidion]

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (John 16:13)

Help me out here Paidion, how does is the Spirit going to tell them things (or disclose) to come if the future is not able to be know?

So is the gift of prophecy actually the gift of guessing?

No, it is a gift of prediction --- God's prediction revealed to His prophets.

Guesses are more or less random. When I toss a die, you might guess which number turns up. Predictions are based on facts. For instance, weather predictions are not guesses. They are based on wind speed and direction, the presence or absence of rain clouds, atmospheric pressure in various locations, etc., etc. God's predictions are based on His complete knowledge of all facts including people's thoughts.

When a person makes a universal statement such as "All ravens are black", and if someone displays a non-black raven, he has proved the statement false. It doesn't matter how many thousands of black ravens you come up with. That will never prove that all ravens are black as long as there is a single counter-example.

When people make the universal statement that "God's predictions always come true", it doesn't matter how many examples you present in which God has made a prediction and it has in fact become true. If there is even a single counter-example, it proves the sentence false. I have presented a counter-example in which God's prediction did not come true. That in itself is sufficient (Indeed there are several others as well).

If God knows the future, then His predictions would always become reality.

So if you want to counteract my position Biblically, and maintain that God DOES know the future exhaustively, it won't do to simply come up with 200 more examples of cases in which God's predictions became true. You will have to show that all counter-examples which may be presented, are not actually counter-examples at all.

[RV]

Hi Paidion,

I'd like to see:

I have presented a counter-example in which God's prediction did not come true. That in itself is sufficient (Indeed there are several others as well).

Not that I don't believe you, I've just never seen them.