Assessing the Necessity of Open Theism 3

[mattrose]

Reply to Paidion
I believe that God knows, and has established - ordained - all our possible choices from the Creation. If He doesn't know them all, He's NOT omniscient. So whatever choices we make cannot surprise God. Think of God's foreknowledge as akin to having multiple copies of a film of our life. Each copy represents our different choice decision trees; the copy that's distributed is solely based on our choices. At each choice point, until we make our choice, we have more than one choice; after each of our choices, we've narrowed down our life choice possibilities.
kenblogton

In this film anology, a couple things should be clarified

1. These other films actually exist in the analogy. But you said the future possibilities that we end up not choosing don't actually exist. Is this a weakness in the analogy or are you changing your answer?

2. You seem to be defending that omniscience means God knows everything. But earlier you stated that God doesn't know what choice we'll make (just that God knows all the possibilities). Isn't God not knowing what choice we'll make a logical limit to omniscience? Isn't it the same logical limit that open theists are comfortable with?

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
The multiple film copies are multiple possible life paths - real possibilities, not real actualities.
Again, I'm saying that God knows all the real possibilities since creation, but He does not know the real actual choices, because He has given us free will.
kenblogton

[mattrose]

Reply to mattrose
The multiple film copies are multiple possible life paths - real possibilities, not real actualities.
Again, I'm saying that God knows all the real possibilities since creation, but He does not know the real actual choices, because He has given us free will.
kenblogton

I take from this that

1. You are admitting the weakness of the film analogy and

2. You are admitting that you accept logical limits to God's omniscience

I agree with you on both counts

[Paidion]

I believe that God knows, and has established - ordained - all our possible choices from the Creation.

Knowing all our possible choices is quite different from knowing all of our choices. Open theists have no problem with the idea of God knowing all of our possible choices before we make them. What they disbelieve is that God knows beforehand the actual choices which we will make—not because God is not omniscient, but because there's nothing to know as these choices have not yet been made.

I don't know what you mean by affirming that God has "established" or "ordained" all our possible choices from the Creation.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose and Paidion

1. You are admitting the weakness of the film analogy and 2. You are admitting that you accept logical limits to God's omniscience

Because it's an analogy, it has inherent weakness. However, it makes the point that God creates so foreordains all our possible future choices. He knows them all so cannot be surprised by them. The only logical limit is that God does not foreordain, so He does not know, our actual choices, because He has given us free will.

I don't know what you mean by affirming that God has "established" or "ordained" all our possible choices from the Creation.

All human choices that will ever occur are established by God at Creation; He foreordains them. Nothing we choose can ever be a surprise to God; we can never choose anything that God has not already established as a possibility; we can never surprise God with original choices that He did not anticipate - He knows them all.
kenblogton

[mattrose]

Because it's an analogy, it has inherent weakness. However, it makes the point that God creates so foreordains all our possible future choices. He knows them all so cannot be surprised by them. The only logical limit is that God does not foreordain, so He does not know, our actual choices, because He has given us free will.

We are in agreement on these points

All human choices that will ever occur are established by God at Creation; He foreordains them. Nothing we choose can ever be a surprise to God; we can never choose anything that God has not already established as a possibility; we can never surprise God with original choices that He did not anticipate - He knows them all.
kenblogton

What is confusing to Paidion and myself on this front is that your choice of words (established/ordained) make it sound like these future possibilities actual exist as realities. But you have clarified previously, and once again here, that that is NOT what you mean. I don't have any problem whatsoever with the underlined portion of your statement to Paidion. It is only the use of 'established' and 'ordained' that made me originally think you meant something more than what you actually meant.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
I use 'established' and 'ordained' to make the point that God CREATES all the possibilities - we CANNOT come up with a possibility that God has not already established or ordained at Creation. For God, there is nothing new or surprising - He knows all the possibilities from the get-go. The choices we have available are real possible choices; the choices we make from those choice possibilities because of our free will have real eternal consequences.
I think I'm getting repetitive in my explanations; I don't know how to say it differently so it would be clearer to you.
kenblogton

[mattrose]

Reply to mattrose
I use 'established' and 'ordained' to make the point that God CREATESs all the possibilities - we CANNOT come up with a possibility that God has not already established or ordained at Creation. For God, there is nothing new or surprising - He knows all the possibilities from the get-go. The choices we have available are real possible choices; the choices we make from those choice possibilities because of our free will have real eternal consequences.
I think I'm getting repetitive in my explanations; I don't know how to say it differently so it would be clearer to you.
kenblogton

You don't have to keep re-stating it since you already explained how it is you are using words like 'ordained' and 'established.' I think even 'creates possibilities' is awkward. Why not just say God is aware of all the possibilities? That sounds less like they actually exist somewhere in some other dimension. To create them implies they exist as a creation somewhere. Or at least it sounds like it to me.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose

I think even 'creates possibilities' is awkward. Why not just say God is aware of all the possibilities?

.
First, let me revise my film copies example as follows: at each choice point along our life path decision tree, God has established options or scenarios or Story Boards and our free will choices determine the film version produced or what our life path is up to that point.
It is essential for God to create all possibilities; since He is Creator and omniscient. To say He is merely aware of the possibilities (omniscient) implies that He doesn't create them; I believe there's nothing that exists that God doesn't create except the Trinity, which is eternal existent!
kenblogton

[Paidion]

First, let me revise my film copies example as follows: at each choice point along our life path decision tree, God has established options or scenarios or Story Boards and our free will choices determine the film version produced or what our life path is up to that point.

This concept seems bizarre to me in its practical application. The idea that God is the author of "Story Boards" which involve torture, murder, rape, etc. is inconsistent with His totally loving character.

It seems to me that to say that God KNOWS all the possible options that a person can choose, is quite different from saying that God created or "established" those options.