The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
The only explanation I have for your continued insistence that your views are different from open theism is if you actually believe that all future possibilities tangibly exist in some real sense. In other words, you may be saying that a infinite (or nearly infinite) amount of futures actually exist (and by 'exist' I'm not sure what you could possibly mean) and that the only thing God doesn't know is which existing future become the actual present. If that is your view, I have to ask... in what sense to future possibilities actually, tangibly, really, exist? Do they exist in some other dimension? As a parallel universe?
The underlined part of your quote is exactly what I'm saying. My analogical explanation uses a shopping excursion. Imagine you are at a moral choice point in your life. You have a number of possible choices that you can make. Now relate this to a shopping excursion in a department store. There are many items from which you can choose. All of the choices are real possible choices for you. You make your choices and leave the remaining items behind in the store – real items which you could have chosen, but decided against. It is similar when you make a moral choice. You can decide from a variety of options ranging from totally good to completely evil. God knows all the choices that are available to you – choices which He preordains at Creation. All of these choices are real. None of your choices can surprise God, because God knows them all in the eternal now.
kenblogton

[kenblogton]

Reply to Homer
Someone please explain how God can not know what I will FREELY chose to do tomorrow. I do not understand how his foreknowing would cause my decision to be made in the way I choose.
God knows all your possible choices (His omniscience), not which choice you will actually make (your free will).
kenblogton

[steve7150]

Someone please explain how God can not know what I will FREELY chose to do tomorrow. I do not understand how his foreknowing would cause my decision to be made in the way I choose.

Christian apologist John Lennox (Oxford professor who holds doctorates in mathematics, science, and philosophy) recently remarked that scientists do not even know what time is.






Yes Homer i think you are right. Man's freewill is preserved in the fact he can choose any path he wants. Whether God knows or not is incidental because if man can freely choose then he has freedom of choice.
God and you and I know that Ken will disagree with what i just said, but Ken has the free choice to agree!

Re time, couldn't it be defined as measuring the passing of an age or possibly events within the age?

[Paidion]

Someone please explain how God can not know what I will FREELY chose to do tomorrow.

Homer, I have explained in detail why He cannot know. So I won't repeat myself—except these brief statements once again, but worded slightly differently: God cannot know what you freely choose to do tomorrow because possibly you have not yet made that free choice. If ANYONE knew now what you will do tomorrow, then it is TRUE now what you will do tomorrow. But if it is TRUE now what you will do tomorrow, then you cannot do otherwise tomorrow. Thus you will not be able to do otherwise. For if you were unable to do otherwise, then (unless something is physically or psychologically preventing you), you do not have the free will to do otherwise.

I do not understand how his foreknowing would cause my decision to be made in the way I choose.

There is nothing for you to understand. For I don't think ANYONE holds the position that God's foreknowing would cause your decision to be made. The very idea that mere knowledge of something would cause something to occur, seems ludicrous. If that what you think Open Theists believe, then you do not understand their argument.

[mattrose]

Reply to mattrose
The only explanation I have for your continued insistence that your views are different from open theism is if you actually believe that all future possibilities tangibly exist in some real sense. In other words, you may be saying that a infinite (or nearly infinite) amount of futures actually exist (and by 'exist' I'm not sure what you could possibly mean) and that the only thing God doesn't know is which existing future become the actual present. If that is your view, I have to ask... in what sense to future possibilities actually, tangibly, really, exist? Do they exist in some other dimension? As a parallel universe?
The underlined part of your quote is exactly what I'm saying.
kenblogton

Well I am glad I finally figured out where it is that you differ from open theists. Interesting. Thanks for clarifying!

Personally, I'd say 2 things about this difference.

1. I think it is a minor difference. Your view would clearly count as a subset of open theism in my opinion.
2. I think your position (that the non-chosen possibilities tangibly exist in some way) is flawed.

My analogical explanation uses a shopping excursion. Imagine you are at a moral choice point in your life. You have a number of possible choices that you can make. Now relate this to a shopping excursion in a department store. There are many items from which you can choose. All of the choices are real possible choices for you. You make your choices and leave the remaining items behind in the store – real items which you could have chosen, but decided against. It is similar when you make a moral choice. You can decide from a variety of options ranging from totally good to completely evil. God knows all the choices that are available to you – choices which He preordains at Creation. All of these choices are real. None of your choices can surprise God, because God knows them all in the eternal now.

The reason why I consider your view flawed is twofold:

1. Your analogy doesn't really work
The alternative choices (that we don't pick) are not "real items"... they never were. They were potential choices. The one you picked became real because you picked it. Likewise, I agree that "God knows all the choices available to you." They are real options. None of that can surprise God. But they are not real realities. They are only real possible realities.

2. Your final statement is, to me, non-sensible
Your view seems to suggest that God preordained all possibilities at creation. In a sense all possibilities played out from His perspective. All of these (millions of?) possibilities really exist for God. In the 'eternal now' God knows them all. Please correct me if this misrepresents what you are saying! IF THIS IS TRUE, in what sense is the possible world that you and I are dialoguing in any MORE REAL than one in which the internet was never even invented? Aren't both realities equally existent in the 'eternal now' as 'real possibilities' preordained at creation? Is there a real alternative reality out there where Adam didn't even fall? How is that real alternative less real than the alternatives in which he did?

In short, I don't understand how your view falls short of theorizing an infinite number of parallel universes equally valid from God's perspective.

[steve7150]

For if you were unable to do otherwise, then (unless something is physically or psychologically preventing you), you do not have the free will to do otherwise.










But from mans perspective he does not know what God may know, so in mans mind he has the ability to freely choose. The question is whether free will or choice is determined by what God knows or by what man does not know.
So when man chooses in his mind, he is freely choosing based on his lack of knowledge about the big picture.

[mattrose]

But from mans perspective he does not know what God may know, so in mans mind he has the ability to freely choose. The question is whether free will or choice is determined by what God knows or by what man does not know. So when man chooses in his mind, he is freely choosing based on his lack of knowledge about the big picture.

Of course... that is just an illusion of free will. And it raises all sorts of moral questions about God's character.

[Homer]

Steve7150 wrote:

But from mans perspective he does not know what God may know, so in mans mind he has the ability to freely choose. The question is whether free will or choice is determined by what God knows or by what man does not know.
So when man chooses in his mind, he is freely choosing based on his lack of knowledge about the big picture.

My thought exactly! Where is the moral problem with God knowing what I would choose?

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
The reason why I consider your view flawed is twofold:
1. Your analogy doesn't really work
The alternative choices (that we don't pick) are not "real items"... they never were. They were potential choices. The one you picked became real because you picked it. Likewise, I agree that "God knows all the choices available to you." They are real options. None of that can surprise God. But they are not real realities. They are only real possible realities.
Let me explain why your thinking is flawed. If the only real choice is the one you picked, then there is no free will, because God must have known that choice beforehand. Free will requires that all your possible choices be real.
2. Your final statement is, to me, non-sensible
Your view seems to suggest that God preordained all possibilities at creation. In a sense all possibilities played out from His perspective. All of these (millions of?) possibilities really exist for God. In the 'eternal now' God knows them all. Please correct me if this misrepresents what you are saying! IF THIS IS TRUE, in what sense is the possible world that you and I are dialoguing in any MORE REAL than one in which the internet was never even invented? Aren't both realities equally existent in the 'eternal now' as 'real possibilities' preordained at creation? Is there a real alternative reality out there where Adam didn't even fall? How is that real alternative less real than the alternatives in which he did?
In short, I don't understand how your view falls short of theorizing an infinite number of parallel universes equally valid from God's perspective.
The first underlined part is exactly correct. If He didn't preordain all the possibilities, then God is not omniscient, omnipotent or immanent. The second underlined part is flawed because it is stuck in the physical. All the preordaining occurs in eternity, which is spiritual, not physical.
kenblogton

[kenblogton]

Reply to Homer
My thought exactly! Where is the moral problem with God knowing what I would choose?

The moral problem is that God is not only omniscient, He is also creator. So if He made you knowing in advance that you'd choose something sinful, that is immoral.
kenblogton