Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

[seer]

I affirm just as strongly, Seer, that what I said about Christians before Augustine believing in the reconciliation of all people to God IS true.

I don't know where you got that quote which you say is from 2 Clement 5:5. I find that according to Lightfoot's translation, 2 Clement 5:5 reads:

And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world is mean and for a short time, but the promise of Christ is great and marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life eternal.

As for the quotes from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, and some of the others, I could comment on those written in Greek, if I had access to transcripts of the manuscipts. Nevertheless, I am guessing that reference to "for ever" and "everlasting punishment" (so translated) are expressions similar to those found in the New Testament, where "for ages" would be a proper translation of the first phase. The second phrase is found in Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says that the "goats" go away into κολασιν ἀιωνιον. The original meaning κολασις was "pruning" as in the pruning of trees to correct their growth. Indeed, most lexicons give "correction" as one of the meanings of κολασις. Now obviously there cannot be "eternal" or "everlasting" correction, for those undergoing it would never actually come to a place where the correction was completed. The adjective ἀιωνιος is derived from the nout ἀιων, the meaning of which is "age". So Jesus said that the goats would to into "agey correction, that is a correction which goes from age to age ---- a very long period of time. All of God's punishments are remedial.

If "everlasting punishment in hell (Gehenna)" were true, surely Paul would have warned against it, but in all 12 of his letters included in the New Testament, he doesn't use the word Gehenna even once. Indeed, in all of the New Testament (other than the gospels) the word is use only once (in James 3:6), and even there the word in not used to warn people about going there.

Yet, going to Gehenna for many ages is a fearful thing, and certainly to be avoided. Jesus definitely warned people about it. The same warning occurs in many of the second-century Christian writers.

It wasn't because of his teaching about the reconcilation of all to God that Origen's writings at a later time, were rejected by the catholic church. Why was that aspect not even mentinioned if it were a problem?

I could quote several early writers who taught universal reconciliation, but I'll keep this thread short, since, we're starting to get off topic. If you want to discuss this matter, maybe you should start a new thread.

First Paidion, "pruning" could also mean "cutting off" like cutting off a bad branch. Second, if aiōnios really is only age lasting then show me where Christ, in the gospels, promised His followers eternal life. Or is the life he offerend only "age lasting?"

[Paidion]

Well, it appears that this is going to continue to be discussed on THIS thread, even though we are getting off topic.

First Paidion, "pruning" could also mean "cutting off" like cutting off a bad branch.

Exactly! We all have bad branches that need cutting off. That is precisely how we are corrected.

Second, if aiōnios really is only age lasting then show me where Christ, in the gospels, promised His followers eternal life. Or is the life he offerend only "age lasting?"

It has never been my position that ἀιωνιος means "age lasting". The meaning of the word itself does not include any temporal aspects. The application of the adjective can be either to that which is unending or to that which comes to an end. Sometimes the word probably should be translated "permanent" or "permanently" such as when Paul indicated to Philemon that his thieving slave was parted from him for awhile in order that he might have him back permanently (verse 15)

When Jesus is recorded as having said,

And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings. Luke 16:9 NASB

Surely He was not teaching that if we make friends with our money, we will go to heaven! Was He not teaching that if we make friends with our money, REAL friends, that if we go broke, these friends will receive us into their houses to live? So the translation should be "they will receive you into permanent dwellings."

"Permanent" does not necessarily mean "forever". If you have a permanent driver's licence, that does not mean you will have it forever. You can lose it if you have a number of serious demeanors on your driving record, or you would lose it if you didn't renew it.

I believe the word when used literally means "going from age to age", with no indication as to whether there will be an end or not.

The true Greek word for "eternal" is αἰδιος. This word is used in reference to God's eternal power and deity (Romans 1:20). The word is never used with reference to "unending punishment" in Gehenna.

There is another Greek expression which is often translated "for ever and ever". It is
ἐις τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων, literally "into the ages of the ages". If the meaning of this phrase was really "for ever and ever" then the New Testament contradicts itself. For we read in Revelation 11:15 in the ESV:

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

But Paul, in I Corinthians 15:24, indicates that Christ will reign only until He has destroyed every other authority. Then He will turn the Kingdom over to the Father ... that God may be all in all.

Here are just a few of the Old Testament passages from the Septuagint translation in which “aiōn” or “aiōnios” cannot mean “eternal” or “for ever”:

As for the rich city, the houses are deserted; they shall abandon the wealth of the city, and the pleasant houses: and the villages shall be caves for ever, the joy of wild asses, shepherds' pastures;UNTIL the Spirit shall come upon you from on high, and Chermel shall be desert, and Chermel shall be counted for a forest. Isaiah 32:14,15

How could could the villages be deserted forever until the Spirit comes upon the people? Obviously the Greek phrase “eōs tou aiōnos” does not mean “for ever” but rather, refers to long period of time. This Greek phrase literally means “until the age.”

And the wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and some of the many righteous as the stars for ever and ever and yet [longer]. Daniel 12:3

Here we have another impossible situation, if the Greek phrase “eis tous aiōnas” (into the ages) really means “for ever and ever”. For there’s a little Greek phrase “kai eti” which was placed immediately following “eis tous aiōnas”. The word “kai” means “and” and the word “eti” means “yet”. "Kai eit" means "yet more". Thus we would have the stars shining for ever and "yet more" or even longer than “for ever”.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. Genesis 6:4

Here is a passage in which no translator is bold enough to translate as "eternal". The word is “owlam” (the Hebrew equivalent of “aionas”) as “eternity”. If this were done, we would have, “These were mighty men that were from eternity…”

The Septuagint uses the Greek phrase “ap’ aiōnos”. In this case, all of the translators (except two) to the best of my knowledge, translate the literal “from an age” as “of old”. That is a good translation, and meaningful in today’s English. Rotherham translates the phrase as “from age past times” and the Concordant translation has “from the eon” --- very literal, but uses the not-very-well-known English word “eon”. The American Heritage Dictionary gives the following definition of “eon”:

n. 1. An indefinitely long period of time; an age.
2. The longest division of geologic time, containing two or more eras.
[Late Latin aeon, from Greek aion.]

So in answer to your objection, the life that Christ offers is indeed ἀιωνιος. This life goes from age to age.... to age to age to age...

Again there is no temporal aspect inherent in the meaning of the Greek adjective ἀιωνιος.

[seer]

Paidion, I suspect we agree on much of this, since I hold to conditional immortality. So we will get specific. "KOLASIS" in Matthew 25, as far as I know there is no reason to prefer "correction" to "punishent" - as a matter of fact, just the opposite. And as far as KOLAZÔ:

KOLASIS is derived etymologically from KOLAZÔ. It is also true that in Classic Greek, KOLAZÔ means "to prune, to cut off." However, there are several problems with asserting that KOLASIS should be properly translated "cutting off" because of its relationship with KOLAZÔ. First, determining the meaning of a word by its derivation is an example of the "etymological fallacy." D.A. Carson states that presuming that a word's meaning is bound up with its root or roots is "linguistic nonsense" (Carson, Fallacies, p. 28). Words may or may not share semantic range with their etymological forebears. In many cases, they do not. The fact that all modern lexicons define KOLASIS as "punishment" and not one lists "cutting off" as a possible definition, suggests that it does not mean "cutting off," regardless of what KOLAZÔ may mean.



KOLAZÔ had the meaning "to prune, to cut off" in Classical Greek. However, as the Liddell-Scott lexicon shows, even in classical times, it began to take on the meaning of chastisement or punishment:

to chastise, punish, Sophocles, Euripides, etc.:—Med. to get a person punished, Aristophanes, Plato:—Pass. to be punished, Xenophon. (LS)

While KOLAZÔ may have originally had the meaning "cut off," it was commonly used in late Classical Greek and in Koine Greek to mean "punish, chastise, restrain." A quick check of the modern lexicons will confirm this fact:

Prop[erly] to lop, prune as trees, wings ... to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N.T. (Thayer)

"To cut short," "to lop," "to trim," and figuratively a. "to impede," "restrain," and b. "to punish" ... A common use is for divine chastisement....The NT uses kolazw in Acts 4:18 and 2 Peter 2:9. Only the latter refers to God's punishment (TDNT)

Punish (BAGD) - This lexicon lists dozens of examples from literature contemporary with the NT and lists "punish" as the only meaning for kolazw in this time period.

Moulton & Milligan suggest that kolazw retains the meaning "correcting," "cutting down" in later documents, such as Galen, but note that "punish" is the proper translation in the NT, and cite several contemporary sources supporting this meaning.

http://www.forananswer.org/Matthew/Mt25_46.htm

I have no biblical reason to believe that Matthew 25:46 is speaking of anything but punishment. The final death of the wicked. And Paidion since you agree that aiōnios can mean everlasting why don't you believe that the eternal punishment I quoted from the church fathers was in fact eternal?

[darinhouston]

I have no biblical reason to believe that Matthew 25:46 is speaking of anything but punishment. The final death of the wicked. And Paidion since you agree that aiōnios can mean everlasting why don't you believe that the eternal punishment I quoted from the church fathers was in fact eternal?

I haven't been following this thread, but can the punishment not have an eternal consequence without an eternal duration? When I burn my $20 bill, it's an eternal consequence, forever unrecoverable, but the "act" is over in about 30 seconds.

[Paidion]

Paidion since you agree that aiōnios can mean everlasting why don't you believe that the eternal punishment I quoted from the church fathers was in fact eternal?

Seer, I didn't agree that the word can mean "everlasting". Indeed I clearly stated just the opposite:

The meaning of the word itself does not include any temporal aspects. The application of the adjective can be either to that which is unending or to that which comes to an end.

The application NOT THE MEANING can refer to that which is everlasting.

The word "blue" can apply to a heavy object. That does not mean that "blue" ever MEANS "heavy".

[seer]

I affirm just as strongly, Seer, that what I said about Christians before Augustine believing in the reconciliation of all people to God IS true.

I don't know where you got that quote which you say is from 2 Clement 5:5. I find that according to Lightfoot's translation, 2 Clement 5:5 reads:

And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world is mean and for a short time, but the promise of Christ is great and marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life eternal.

As for the quotes from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, and some of the others, I could comment on those written in Greek, if I had access to transcripts of the manuscipts. Nevertheless, I am guessing that reference to "for ever" and "everlasting punishment" (so translated) are expressions similar to those found in the New Testament, where "for ages" would be a proper translation of the first phase. The second phrase is found in Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says that the "goats" go away into κολασιν ἀιωνιον. The original meaning κολασις was "pruning" as in the pruning of trees to correct their growth. Indeed, most lexicons give "correction" as one of the meanings of κολασις. Now obviously there cannot be "eternal" or "everlasting" correction, for those undergoing it would never actually come to a place where the correction was completed. The adjective ἀιωνιος is derived from the nout ἀιων, the meaning of which is "age". So Jesus said that the goats would to into "agey correction, that is a correction which goes from age to age ---- a very long period of time. All of God's punishments are remedial.

If "everlasting punishment in hell (Gehenna)" were true, surely Paul would have warned against it, but in all 12 of his letters included in the New Testament, he doesn't use the word Gehenna even once. Indeed, in all of the New Testament (other than the gospels) the word is use only once (in James 3:6), and even there the word in not used to warn people about going there.

Yet, going to Gehenna for many ages is a fearful thing, and certainly to be avoided. Jesus definitely warned people about it. The same warning occurs in many of the second-century Christian writers.

It wasn't because of his teaching about the reconcilation of all to God that Origen's writings at a later time, were rejected by the catholic church. Why was that aspect not even mentinioned if it were a problem?

I could quote several early writers who taught universal reconciliation, but I'll keep this thread short, since, we're starting to get off topic. If you want to discuss this matter, maybe you should start a new thread.

First Paidion, I have already shown that "κολασις" was in fact used by the greeks to mean punishment, not just pruning.

Second, pruning could just as well mean to cut off. And that is my position - the wicked are cut off forever. And dead branches are thrown into the fire. Third, you are going to have to do better than 2 Clement - it's vague, I see no universalism in that text, and to be honest we don't know who wrote the letter.

Fourth, as far as the early church fathers goes - not one of them even hints at universal reconcilation - even if the punishment is temporal, there is no evidence that they believed people came back from said punishment, or were finally reconciled. But the claim that the church at large taught/believed in universal reconcilation before Augustine is simply false. Like I said, show me universalism in the first 200 years of the church. I backed up my claim with quotes - now you do the same.

Finally, why would Paul need to use the term Gehenna? He clearly stated that sinners faced death and destruction. That is enough... Besides most of the gentiles that Paul was dealing with would not really understand the meaning of "Gehenna." Where the Jews of Jesus' day would.

Just to let you know Paidion, I have debated the best Unies around on this subject for years - people like Tom Talbott and Gary Amirault, I know the history of the church on this subject very well. And the proof texts you will use.

I suggest we start a new thread - I suspect that Rick is not pleased.

[seer]

I have no biblical reason to believe that Matthew 25:46 is speaking of anything but punishment. The final death of the wicked. And Paidion since you agree that aiōnios can mean everlasting why don't you believe that the eternal punishment I quoted from the church fathers was in fact eternal?

I haven't been following this thread, but can the punishment not have an eternal consequence without an eternal duration? When I burn my $20 bill, it's an eternal consequence, forever unrecoverable, but the "act" is over in about 30 seconds.

Exactly Darin. And that is my position. After all the text does not say eternal "punishing." It's a death penalty...

[Allyn]

I have no biblical reason to believe that Matthew 25:46 is speaking of anything but punishment. The final death of the wicked. And Paidion since you agree that aiōnios can mean everlasting why don't you believe that the eternal punishment I quoted from the church fathers was in fact eternal?

I haven't been following this thread, but can the punishment not have an eternal consequence without an eternal duration? When I burn my $20 bill, it's an eternal consequence, forever unrecoverable, but the "act" is over in about 30 seconds.

Well, for the sake of us believers, lets hope that eternal consequence is forever and ever.