How many Calvinists/Arminians do we have?

[Guest]

I suppose the categories come in handy but it seems best to just say I'm a Christian, or at least I am trying to be one. I know I'm not a Calvinist but I'm not too sure about that Arminius fellow either.

Homer: I understand completely. Calvinists won't get to heaven. Arminians won't get to heaven. Only Christians will. Amen? Now, if your beliefs match up the closest (are the most similar, though not exact) with a certain group of people (say Arminians) would it be off beam to call yourself Arminian? What would you call a fruit that is yellow, elongated, and shaped like a smile? A banana. Right? Well, I quess it depends where you live. Anyhow you would call that fruit a banana because it closely resembles something that we in our logical Greek minds call banana. Right? Now, not all bananas are the same, but they still look like bananas. Do you see where I'm goin' with this?

In this topic, I don't want to debate Calvinism/Arminianism; there are other topics for that. Bro. Steve Gregg has mp3 after mp3 for that, which I am most grateful for. But let's continue to discuss the nature of calling yourself either a Calvinist an Arminian, or whatever. Anyone else is more than welcome to join us.

Agape,

loaves

[Guest]

How about giving us a brief description of both catagories. I don't define myself as either and am not totally sure what a Calvinist is in all respects vs. Arminian. Then maybe we could answer the question better.

[Guest]

Roger: I thank you for your inquisitiveness as to which is which, before you decide. Most Christians fall into two main categories about their beliefs on salvation. There are all sorts of different offshoots, etc. Bro Steve Gregg could explain the differences much better than I could, but here goes:


Calvinism

John Calvin, a Swiss reformer, and his followers have held to five main ideas about salvation. The crux of their beliefs are the known as the "T.U.L.I.P"

1 - Total Depravity. That man cannot respond to God's call of salvation. They will tell you "God does it all."

2 - Unconditional Election. Calvinists believe that God decided before He created the world who will be saved and who will be lost. They teach your eternal destiny has already been decided, and you can't do anything to change that.

3 - Limited Atonement. Calvin taught that Christ's blood was only shed for some people.

4 - Irresistible Grace. If you happen to be one of the elect, Calvin taught, God will force you to come to him. In other words, you can't resist Him.

5 - Perseverance of the Saints. Anyone who is one of the elect can never walk away from God.


Arminianism

Jacob Arminius, a Dutch reformer, outlined his beliefs below:

1 – God created man with a free will. Some say freedom of “choice.” Either way is fine.
2 – Christ died so that it was possible for all men to be saved. He was not willing that any should perish.
3 – Man must respond to Christ’s call, and yield to Him to be saved.
4 – We can never earn salvation by any works we can do.
5 – We are eternally secure AS LONG AS we abide in Christ.

I hope this clears some things up. Some examples of Calvinists are Baptists and Prebyterians. Some example of Arminians are Anabaptists (Hutterites, Amish, Mennonites) and Methodists. But like I said, there are all sorts of different offshoots and variations. Steve, you are welcome to correct me if these definitions are inaccurate.

Agape,

loaves

[Guest]

Thank you for the brief description loaves. I see a lot of truths on both sides of the issues you have outlined and really could not place myself in either camp, although I do not believe a person who has been born of the Spirit can lose his or her salvation. But this is a lengthy topic in itself and may have many posts on this web site already related to this matter. I think I am in the minority on this issue among all those who participate in this wonderful website.
I think "going to heaven" or "going to hell" is way too simple of a conclusion on this matter and that the Bible contains numerous verses which seem to indicate that God has ways of dealing with unfaithful believers other then sending them to hell.

[Guest]

Roger: I understand your standpoint completely. Conditional security may be a hard pill to swallow for some folks. But like I said, people have all sorts of variations of both Calvinism & Arminianism. One form of Calvinism is Dave Hunt Calvinism. Mr. Hunt doesn’t believe in predestination, but he does believe that man has freedom of choice. He is “once saved, always saved” as well. Maybe you have heard of his book “What Love is This?” which exposes some false Calvinist doctrine. His www is: http://www.thebereancall.com. Lots of Calvinists, though, will say that they don’t believe in all 5 points. Mr. Mike Pearl (“Big Papa,” No Greater Joy) is one of them. In fact, the vast majority of Calvinists will say they believe all, but avoid the first two; “T” (Total Depravity) and “U” (Unconditional Election, God picks you and you and you, and that’s all) of TULIP. But from my own logic, if you take away predestination, the whole contrivance just falls apart.

Arminians simply teach that we need to daily abide in Jesus, dare I say moment by moment? They believe that our salvation is, in a certain sense, present tense. It is not a once and done thing. Jesus is the bread of life, and bread needs to be eaten daily, doesn’t it? “Give us this day our daily bread.” But, yes, there is a time when we first yield to God and become reborn. It that a hard pill to swallow? With Jesus by my side, I don’t think so.

Hans Denck, an early Anabaptist leader, summed up Arminianism by saying: “He who would know Christ truly must follow Him daily in life.”

Satan tries to bluff men even as he did with Adam and Eve. “Ye shall not surely die.” By this they are made safe in their sins because “they will never fall away,” and because they made a profession 30 years ago. But what about today?

God’s warning in the New Testament is plain: “If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die” (Romans 8:13). Apart from abiding in Christ we are not insuperable, “…let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” (1 Corinthians 10:12).

I’m not trying to scare anyone. It is only a warning from God. And warnings should be minded.

Well, I didn’t want to slip into debating Calvinism/Arminianism but that looks like what will happen. What are some other opinions?

Agape,

loaves

[Guest]

Hi loaves,

I am definitely not a Calvinist, although, as a young man, I believed in pre-destination to heaven or hell, and in unconditional security. I tried to convince others of the same. After reading second century Christian literature, I was convicted, and repented of that false teaching.

At the present time, I have never considered myself an Arminian either --- until today. I believe all 5 points that you said that Arminius used to summarize his position. So I guess I'll have to accept the Arminian label, although I hate labels. Once people label you, they presume that they know what you stand for, and so they can dismiss whatever you say.

[Guest]

Paidion: I hate labels to. I praise God I was able to define those terms for you.

I have over the years found that we are not Calvinists or Arminians. We are only Christians. Now, Calvinism/Arminianism might be terms we use to describe what we believe, but who we ARE are Christians. If our beliefs are the closest to the Arminians, then I think its ok to call ourselves that. But are quintessence is "Christian."

In the love of Jesus, Agape,

loaves

[Guest]

Good word there loaves. I'm in totally agreement with you on Christ being our daily salvation. He is the bread of life and we must partake of him everday as our real spiritual food. And this truly is salvation, because only in partaking of him are we experiencially delivered from this present evil age.
I voted "Calminian". But really I just need Jesus everyday and am truely thankful that I can touch Him in the word and prayer and in the fellowship in the body of Christ.
I also am really enjoying this website. Praise our wonderful Lord!

[Guest]

I agree with the five points stated as Arminian but would rather not have the label. I will agree with him as far as I see that he agrees with the scriptures.

I do not see how anyone can be a Calvinist who doesn't hold to all five points. You either are or you are not. The system is completely logical, even if wrong, but if any of the five points is untrue the system becomes illogical and falls apart. Some Baptists, such as the Primative Baptists, are Calvinists but I do not believe most are.

I see four major categories, differing in their respective views of the relationship of faith and works:

1. Catholic: Saved by faith and works.

2. Calvinist: Saved by faith, works are necessary evidence of faith.

3. Arminian: Saved by faith, works are necessary evidence of faith.

4. Once saved, always saved: Saved by faith, works not necessary evidence of salvation.

I realize this is a very brief description, but in a very important sense, the Calvinist and Arminian are closer to each other than to either of the other two. A true Calvinist or Arminian, as I understand their positions, will tell you someone living a life of sin is unsaved.

[Guest]

Homer: That faith/works breakdown was really accommodating! Thank you. I got dug up most of my info on Calvinism/Arminianism from a tract entitled "Calvinism/Arminianism, Which?".

Would I consider Arminians by brothers? Definitely. Calvinists? Sure. But Catholics who say we are saved by works? Well, I can’t judge, I suppose it is possible for them to be Christians. But I find it hard to believe that.

Agape,

loaves