Proof Regeneration Precedes Faith

Post by **_Homer** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:11 pm

Mark,

Still waiting for your answer.

Post by **__id_1679** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:32 am

Homer

Pardon me if I am wrong. But I detect a slight "sporting" tone to your questions. Do you really have any intention of understanding why we believe that regeneration precedes faith, or are you looking for some reformed straw man you can knock down? Frankly, I see no humility in the way you form your questions.

My apology in advance if I'm wrong.
Peace in Him,
Bob

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:17 pm

Thanks guys. We are expecting more weird weather!

Homer, I thought I responded.
Let me do some catch up. I want to leave having provided a response to everyone who has asked me.

Thanks
Mark

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:34 pm

I am curious about something. As I understand you, you believe the unsaved are "dead", unable to believe or do anything to please God. Then you believe they are "born again", or regenerated. They are then "alive" and enabled to believe the Gospel when they hear it. Yet I believe the scriptures inform us that our life is in Christ. If we are not in Christ, we are "dead". Our new life is only when we are in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (New King James Version)

17. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Those who Calvinism depicts as regenerated are not yet in Christ prior to coming to faith in Him, yet Calvinism holds that there may be an indeterminant time (or maybe never) before the regenerate come to faith:

Westminster Confession, Chapter 10, sec. 2,3

Regeneration precedes faith Homer.
Being in Christ flows first from Predestination/election, then calling, then regeneration resulting in repentance and faith, then progressive sanctification and eventually glorification.

Quote:
2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

I note that you have regenerated infants and others, apparently who never hear the Gospel, who are regenerated. Do you hold to the Westminster Confession or do you repudiate what it says?

I have no problem with the WCF, although I am not Presbyterian.
The WCF does not teach that regeneration means an ability to believe or hear the gospel, so you need to clarify what you are getting at there.

Are you saying that an infant must have the necessary knowledge or faculties in order to get this thing called faith?
I do not believe in Gnosticism, perhaps you can further explain?

In your Calvinist system, are there three states that man may be in, i.e. dead, regenerate but outside Christ, and a new man in Christ?

Calvinism does not teach that someone can be regenerate and Outside of Christ, so I have no idea where you get that idea from.

Mark

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:59 am

Mark,

You wrote:

Calvinism does not teach that someone can be regenerate and Outside of Christ, so I have no idea where you get that idea from.

And Bob wrote:

Do you really have any intention of understanding why we believe that regeneration precedes faith, or are you looking for some reformed straw man you can knock down?

If regeneration precedes faith, perhaps by an indeterminate time as the WCF indicates, and all regenerate persons are in Christ, as you say, then please explain how you have regenerate unbelievers who are in Christ, even if temporarily? (Or permanently as the WCF indicates.) How are we to understand you?

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:58 am

Where does the WCF teach that?

Mark

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:24 am

Mark,

From WCF:

3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

Here we clearly see the claim that persons who have never heard the gospel, and are thus incapable of faith in Christ, are regenenerated and in Christ according to your own statement that all regenerated persons are in Christ.

Post by **__id_1679** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:31 am

Homer

Doesn't the term "unbeliever" presume the opportunity to believe?
If a person never has or had the opportunity to hear the gospel, do you assume they are lost? Unregenerate or regenerate people regardless of time and state, are all known by God, are they not? In my opinion, God through Christ redeems whom He wills. The "normal" scriptural means is through the prior prepatory work of God's Spirit upon the heart to recieve the "seed". Faith is produced by the Spiirit through hearing for those who have been given "ears to hear", "eyes to see" and a (new) heart to believe the Gospel. Anything outside of what God reveals through His word on the matter, is in my opinion, mere speculation. God has said, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy". The unanswered issues therefore, I will leave to His mercy.

Peacein Him,
Bob

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:27 pm

Bob,

The term "unbeliever" simply means a person who does not believe.

You asked:

If a person never has or had the opportunity to hear the gospel, do you assume they are lost?

No, I do not judge, that is Messiah's prerogative and His alone. Neither do I call people heretics who are of a different opinion but love and try to follow Jesus in all things.

Anything outside of what God reveals through His word on the matter, is in my opinion, mere speculation.

Good description of the Westminster Confession regarding regeneration, and a good illustration of the problem with creeds in general.

And still I wait for a biblical answer to my original question. You folks keep dancing around it. How can we understand?

Post by **__id_1679** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:43 pm

Homer

Well I am not here to defend anyones particular creed. In fact, I have not read much of the WCF. However, on the matter of regeneration preceding faith, I do not know what you require from scripture to satisfy
your mind. I have presented what I believe the word teaches on the matter. I am really not trying to win an argument. But if regeneration is not prior to faith, then your salvation is your own work, not Gods grace.

The question that really needs to be asked of our Arminian friends, is how do you understand regeneration? I think those of us with a reformed view have attempted in earnest to share our understanding.

If you don't mind sharing Homer, as you look back upon your past, did you notice any work of God upon you prior to your conversion?

What do you make of and notice about Apostle Pauls conversion? What do you make of the story of those Muslims who all had the same vision of Jesus and were converted? What exactly in your mind enables a person to believe in Christ unto salvation? What did God mean when He said to Moses and Paul repeated, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy", and He hardens whom He wills"? What did Jesus mean when he said "no one can come to me unless the Father draws him", or that the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it" and many others like them? How do you understand them?

Is regeneration merely a metaphor about the new birth and how we reorder our lives like some philosophy? Or is it in reality a gracious creative act of God done upon us that we may believe the Gospel of Jesus unto salvation?

Peace in Him,
Bob