Faith is "trust" ... not a "work"

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Rom 3:10 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
Rom 3:11 there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."

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Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.

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Joh 15:16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

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Hi Mark,

Rather than proof-text, why not exegete the text' you have posted. I as an Arminian looked at those verses and agreed with everyone of them.

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Hey Tartan, you forgot to quote the following text!

Romans 2:6-10

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

Oh, my! Did the apostle Paul believe in salvation by works? Why did he say it was those seeking glory that will be given eternal life, rather than those giving all the glory to God? Paul couldn't have been a very good Calvinist!

Was Paul talking about people receiving eternal life in the context of being judged by their works, of all things? Couldn't Paul at least have said everyone would be judged according to their faith? I guess Paul wasn't a very good Arminian, either.

Paul's concluding summation quoted above, sounds almost as if he were one of those dreaded Pelagians!

[Guest]

Joh 15:16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear


Yes Jesus did in fact choose his disciples which means nothing more then that specific event.

[Guest]

But keep in mind what the Arminian is saying.
He has made a decision by an act of his will to trust in Christ. His neighbour has not done so, therefore the Arminian is doing something that the neighbour is not doing, therefore the Arminian can have a boast before God, for he has made the vital difference by an act of his supposed free will.

Of all the things that Calvinists harp on, the claim that Arminians have something to "boast" about is the singularly most annoying.

If I am broke, and someone offers me twenty bucks to get me to the end of the week, is my accepting this gift something to boast about? Of course not. It is humiliating, and is something that would cause me to praise and thank the person who helped me out. Not to boast about, to steal a little glory for myself.

I really wish Calvinists would hang this one up.

[Guest]

Derek,

I agree. This yarn has gotten pretty frayed. Whenever a Calvinist uses it, it tells me either that he does not have a clue about what Arminians believe, and he is just repeating criticism verbatim from his gurus, or else that he knows better, but cannot win an argument without misrepresenting the position of his opponent.

[Guest]

Derek,

I agree. This yarn has gotten pretty frayed. Whenever a Calvinist uses it, it tells me either that he does not have a clue about what Arminians believe, and he is just repeating criticism verbatim from his gurus, or else that he knows better, but cannot win an argument without misrepresenting the position of his opponent.

"I really wish Calvinists would hang this one up."

So do I. It only makes them look ignorant. I much prefer to debate an opponent who at least appears to have done his homework.

[Guest]

Derek,

I think all of us wish they would hang it up. That is why we should be very cautious of "logical" systems like Calvinism. If you accept part of it, then it tries to bind you to the rest of its doctrine and make you its prophet. In it's attempt to corner the market on giving God the most glory, it tries to marginalize other ideas by insisting that they diminish God's glory. They suppose that predestination of an unconditionally elected group to eternal life gives God more glory than if He predestined those who believe to eternal life. They suppose that predestination of an unconditionally elected group to damnation gives God more glory than if He predestined those who reject the truth to damnation.

In so doing, they boldly proclaim that they sufficiently know God's very nature in order to accertain how He is most glorified. My question is this: what if their perceptions of how God receives the most glory are wrong? They are arguing that God cannot receive as much glory by predestining those who believe to eternal life. Well, what if this is how God receives the most glory? If it is, then they have been falsely attributing characteristics to God and showing disdain for the actual means by which God receives the most glory. They should be very careful here. I'll be clear: I do not say that God receives less glory in the Calvinist system. This would be to know the mind of God.

And I still cannot understand how one who undertands faith can think it's something to boast in. Whenever I consider my faith--my belief in Christ as my Savior because I was too wretched to save myself, it can never be something that I boast in. It is utterly humbling. This is why I believe that Calvinist propaganda (like communist propaganda) can brainwash people into believing things that normally do not make sense. My question to the Calvinist is this: let's suppose that faith is not a gift; then, when you think about your faith, is it something in which you would boast? All the non-Calvinists seem to agree that they cannot boast in their faith and this conclusion seems deeply rooted in having experienced faith and understanding what it is. However, Calvinists seem to be saying that if their faith is not a gift, then they would boast about it before God. This scares me because this attitude does not seem possible for those who have experienced true faith. This notion only seems possible for those who have a very abstract view of faith.

Lewis