Why is this debate important?

[Guest]

Hello mad,

Quote:
"I just heard something on the radio that makes me want to weigh in on this one.

I was listening to the radio yesterday, and there was a panel of gentlemen (all Calvinists as far as I could tell) answering questions. The question at hand was how a good God could allow evil in the world. The speaker said something like (not a perfect quote), “Evil actions are sin for the person doing them, but, since God ordains all things and is good, we know that the evil actions themselves are good in God’s eyes.”

The reformed material I've read doesn't espouse this view. Do you have a particular reference? I am not so sure the Calvinists here would agree with this assertion either. Perhaps they will weigh in? Your view of God's Sovereignty is pretty much the way I understand it as well. What He permits free will agents to do in no way makes Him responsible for our evil actions. In witnessing to others though, I agree with your point. Truth
is essential. But unfortunately, that is also the problem. We don't always agree on what the Truth says.

In Jesus,
Bob
[/b]

[Guest]

Hi Bob,

It wasn't my intent to argue that all Calvinists hold this view. I have heard some say stuff like this before, but I may not even be summarizing what they are actually saying correctly. The point of my post was that what we believe to be true invariably shows up in our witnessing, counseling, apologetics, etc. For this reason, truth is worth working toward because it will impact how we do these things. That’s going to involve some (hopefully civil) debate such as what we have here on the forum.

[Guest]

mad, hello,

First of all I think it is worth noting that, in my experience, people on both sides of the debate tend to have God’s glory in mind, and both sides feel scripture is on their side. Based on this, I feel pretty safe saying that most people on both sides of the debate are disciples of Jesus (and thus “saved”), so the debate is relatively unimportant in that sense. However, the doctrines we hold inevitably have some impact on our worldview and the answers we can give the world, as illustrated by the following story.

Amen. Christians don't think in terms of worldview often enough -- and it should be always, imo (glad to hear this from you)!

I was listening to the radio yesterday, and there was a panel of gentlemen (all Calvinists as far as I could tell) answering questions. The question at hand was how a good God could allow evil in the world. The speaker said something like (not a perfect quote), “Evil actions are sin for the person doing them, but, since God ordains all things and is good, we know that the evil actions themselves are good in God’s eyes.” So it seems that the evil around us is actually good from God’s perspective, but bad from man’s perspective. How this could be was said to be a bit of a mystery. Another guy piped up to remind us that it is God who defines “good”, and we need to be careful about imposing our own fallible definitions on Him. I shared this with my wife, and she said, “That’s not a very satisfying answer.” But that is where you have to go if “God is sovereign” = “God ordains all things”.

Non-Calvinists basically say "God is sovereign over all things," period, while Calvinists seem to have a deep need to explain every detail of what they think are God's decrees (which I haven't been able to find biblical support for...and have really been looking).....

My view of God’s sovereignty allows a more satisfying answer (to me anyway) to the question at hand. There is evil in the world because people don’t always do what God wants, and He has sovereignly determined that we have the freedom to do so (and will be held responsible for those actions). Of course, satisfying answers don’t determine truth. The scriptures do that (and that’s what all the debate is about), but I have found that the truth generally leads to satisfying answers, not “mysteries”. The problem with things like the “evil=good” hand waving above is that it runs many people (like the folks I work with) off. One of the radio guys made the comment that you have to look at all of this through the eyes of faith. I think by that he means we have to be willing to accept absurdities.

"Believing in absurd mysteries"...sounds more & more gnostic as we go along here.

My point is, truth is important, even if our “salvation” is not at stake. We need to be ready to give answers for the hope we have. If those answers are in error and we run people off (and this occurs on both sides of the debate as noted in other posts), we have a problem that is worth trying to correct in my opinion.

I think extremist Arminianism is far less dangerous, though it is also incorrect, than Calvinism: It would be much easier to teach the faithfulness of God to sinning Christians who think they lose their salvation with every sin than to try to convince a former believer that their earlier experience of God was not only "real"...but can be real again! The first case involves discipleship. The second case involves deprogramming from a faulty worldview (that is incompatible with Scripture), imo

Btw, "extremist Arminianism" wouldn't actually be Arminianism. It would be a corruption and/or misunderstanding of it. Put another way, I'm sure Arminius didn't teach you lose your salvation if you commit one sin....

Thanks,
Rick

[Guest]

Hello mad,

Quote: "The point of my post was that what we believe to be true invariably shows up in our witnessing, counseling, apologetics, etc. For this reason, truth is worth working toward because it will impact how we do these things".

I couldn't agree with you more! When I have opportunity to witness, I usually leave the "dogmatic stuff ", i.e., topics like regeneration, predestination, election, the trinity etc, alone. Unless of course it comes up in conversation. I don't think an understanding of these topics are essential for our salvation in Christ. I sure didn't understand any of it before. I still labor to understand some of it now! There's enough confusion (even in the Body) over who Jesus is/was (liberal-Jesus seminar types) , peddled by the liberal media that I wonder how a true presentation of the Gospel ever gets heard in the west anymore. There are many people I've encountered over the years who get their "theology" from this type of media. It's 'easy' and requires no independant thought or reserch. Kind- of-a-fast-food approach to God!
Sometimes it seems we have to "undo" a lot of bad theology before a clear presentation of the Gospel can get through. Amen?

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Quote from Traveler -

"Sometimes it seems we have to "undo" a lot of bad theology before a clear presentation of the Gospel can get through. Amen?"

Amen. I've spent some years doing this with more to go I'm afraid.