The Called Of God

Post by **_james** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:48 pm

tartanarmy wrote:Hi, give me a reminder where we knocked heads!
I do not seem to recall our discussions at the moment, please refresh my memory brother?

Mark

I used to post under "seer." I was a rabid Arminian back then... ; )

Post by **_Homer** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:17 pm

So here we see the absurdity. God commands men to do that which He knows they can not do; neither will he allow them to do so, for He has chosen to make sure they can not. You have an insincere God in your theology. And to think you claim to give God greater glory than the non-Calvinist!

Methinks He says "thanks but no thanks".

Post by **_james** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:50 pm

Homer wrote:So here we see the absurdity. God commands men to do that which He knows they can not do; neither will he allow them to do so, for He has chosen to make sure they can not. You have an insincere God in your theology. And to think you claim to give God greater glory than the non-Calvinist! Methinks He says "thanks but no thanks".

Really? God commands men to keep the Mosaic law - can they? God commands men to Love Him with all their heart - can they? No, we are by nature slaves to sin.

Romans 7:

"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."

Your problem is with scripture, not me Homer...

Post by **_Steve** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:58 pm

James,

Where do you get your doctrine that people can't keep the Law or can't love the Lord with all their hearts? You seem to be basing this claim on experience, rather than scripture (Luke 1:6/ Job 1:8).

Of course, consistent obedience cannot be maintained without the assiting grace of God, which anyone may access by faith (Rom.5:2) and humility (James 4:6/ 1 Pet.5:6). Is it your contention that this grace is not accessible to all? Is there any scripture to suggest that God commands men to do what they cannot do, even with His assistance (Rom.8:4)?

Mark,

Are you "back by popular demand"?

Post by **_james** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:22 pm

Steve wrote:James,

Where do you get your doctrine that people can't keep the Law or can't love the Lord with all their hearts? You seem to be basing this claim on experience, rather than scripture (Luke 1:6/ Job 1:8).

Of course, consistent obedience cannot be maintained without the assiting grace of God, which anyone may access by faith (Rom.5:2) and humility (James 4:6/ 1 Pet.5:6). Is it your contention that this grace is not accessible to all? Is there any scripture to suggest that God commands men to do what they cannot do, even with His assistance (Rom.8:4)?

Mark,

Are you "back by popular demand"?

Again Steve, Romans 7:

"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."

Are you suggesting that we can live sinless lives? Do you personally know anyone who has?

Post by **_Rick_C** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:38 pm

The correct spelling of eisegesis is: eisegesis (for Calvs & Non-Calvs alike)

Post by **_Steve** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:01 pm

Jim,

I don't know anyone who lives a sinless life. The question should be, do I know anyone who lives a blameless life. If we are to trust the testimony of scripture, Job, John's parents and Saul of Tarsus all lived "blameless" lives (by Old Testament standards) prior to the coming of Christ (Job 1:8/Luke 1:6/Phil.3:6).

I assume this means that, despite their individual failures, they apparently repented in a timely manner, and did what God wanted them to do (e.g., offered prescribed sacrifices, etc.), so that, though they were not without sin, they were without blame. The same is said of us (Phil.2:15/1 Thess.3:13; 5:23/ 1 Tim.3:2, 10).

If a man is held "blameless" by God, does this not suggest that God finds no fault in him? Since people in both testaments are said to have lived in this manner, on what basis can one say that it is impossible?

The citation from Romans 7 alone can hardly overthrow the testimony of so many scriptures, and should not be forced into such service. Every initiated Christian is aware that the verses in Romans 7 are capable of at least three distinct interpretations. Therefore, any interpretation that makes Paul contradict the rest of scripture (including his own statements elsewhere) surely must be by-passed in favor of other viable options.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:01 pm

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Can anyone ever imagine a soul in Hell saying these words?

Two things. First, Paul says Christ gave Himself for him, so should we conclude that Paul believes that Christ gave Himself for him only? If so, why not? Is it because there are passages that say Christ gave Himself for the church? If so, why should we believe that the passages of that nature mean the church only? After all, there are passages that say Christ' death was for every man, was a ransom for all, and for the whole world. Can we have a little consistency in our interperetation methods?

Second, I dont know whether a soul in hell would be saying Christ died for him/her, but I do know there will be souls in hell saying God called and stretched out his hand toward them.

The notes for the MacArthur Study Bible say that "I will not answer. God will withdraw His invitation to sinners because they have rejected Him. Note the rejection of knowledge (v.22), fear of the Lord (vv. 7-9), counsel (v.25), and reproof (v.23)". They will be remembering this, and the destruction the Proverbs says they will face is very similiar with that other passages say will take place in hell.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:44 am

Steve,

Ga 2:20 to prooftext for "individual calling" and/or limited atonement is just plain silly.

Have you heard this before, like in one of your debates? (I haven't). To me, it's so far off-base I wouldn't know what to reply outside of suggesting they read more verses (CONTEXT).

'Seems it's the same error Calvinists make on Romans 9 though, really, (putting an INDIVIDUAL GRID on it while bypassing (not knowing?) the train of thought). Same mistakes, both books......Thanks, Rick

Post by **_james** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:03 am

Steve wrote:Jim,

I don't know anyone who lives a sinless life. The question should be, do I know anyone who lives a blameless life. If we are to trust the testimony of scripture, Job, John's parents and Saul of Tarsus all lived "blameless" lives (by Old Testament standards) prior to the coming of Christ (Job 1:8/Luke 1:6/Phil.3:6).

I assume this means that, despite their individual failures, they apparently repented in a timely manner, and did what God wanted them to do (e.g., offered prescribed sacrifices, etc.), so that, though they were not without sin, they were without blame. The same is said of us (Phil.2:15/1 Thess.3:13; 5:23/ 1 Tim.3:2, 10).

If a man is held "blameless" by God, does this not suggest that God finds no fault in him? Since people in both testaments are said to have lived in this manner, on what basis can one say that it is impossible?

The citation from Romans 7 alone can hardly overthrow the testimony of so many scriptures, and should not be forced into such service. Every initiated Christian is aware that the verses in Romans 7 are capable of at least three distinct interpretations. Therefore, any interpretation that makes Paul contradict the rest of scripture (including his own statements elsewhere) surely must be by-passed in favor of other viable options.

First Steve, I enjoyed our talk last night. Second, I do not see how one gets past the Romans 7 reference. I haven't seen it yet - perhaps you can school me. Third, I'm not sure what the difference between blameless and sinless is - does not God call us to live sinless lives - can we or do we?