Papa J, you seem to only hold to two parts of Calvinism (TALON, I guess), which is good.
The truth generally falls in the middle somewhere, because logically there will always be extremes to both ends of everything.
Actually if you read the post at the bottom of page 2, I confessed to hold to 3 of the 5 TULIP positions and hopefully you read all those OT passages I listed, which will help me keep this shorter than 3 pages. I’m assuming this is a follow up to why God chooses more from one area (European, Middle East, Africa, Asia) than other area’s; lets not forget Mexico and the Philippines, but not now another 2-pages.
Maybe you were agreeing, but I do not think your answer to my one question was complete.
It seems that anywhere between 30-80% of Americans are professing 'Christians' or Catholics, and 20-50% of all people in western European nations are Christians. And the percentage of people who come from Christian homes are between 40-80%.
So, if God 'chooses' (pre-birth, pre-confession, whatever) then does he only send these chosen 'spirit children' (Sounds like Mormonism) into western world countries?
The number of the 'chosen' Christians in eastern countries like India is drastically lower than bible nations; India (3-5%), China (3-10%*) etc., not to mention Islamic Countries (0.5-5%), any glance at a world religions chart would reveal Christians are Christians where the Bible is read.
So, God must use His Word to save, rather than favor Americans over people in India.
If you understood all that I was saying about the descendants of Jacob being God’s elect people, which Calvinist completely ignore in order to come up with “those He foreknew” to be people God selected to be saved before the creation of Adam in some Divine decree. I keep asking them what is more Devine, God or their Decree? My point was in my previous posting, is that Israel of the 830 BC captivity went through their 70 years of captivity, and a percentage of them escaped to the north through the Caucasia’s Mountains to emerge on the southern steps of Russia as Caucasians, and then migrated to Europe. These people lost their identity of being Israelites, lost their written language (was never commonly used) but they spread their spoken language throughout Europe, we call it the Indo-European language. The Indo (Persian) from their 2nd and 3rd generation captivity with the Medes, in whose land they lived and the European (Hittite) a combination of Syrian (remember there were several waves of Assyrian captivities and the Syrians were taken first) and Israelite language, being they were cousins, their Linear A written language was a combination of Hebrew and Greek letters written from right to left, then Linear B was the early Greek language written from left to right. So sorry, Phillip Usher was a bit confused about his Table of Nations, being he had the Book of Genesis and a limited knowledge of the world. Usher wrote from his vast experience of being in his twenties, a doctrinal thesis, information he had just recently been taught from the school that hired him to teach the generation behind him; and that is what most college education is, institutions cloning themselves with parrots to spread their popular views. If Usher would have known what Marco Polo knew about the Asians, he would not have concluded that Caucasians were descendants of Japheth, who better fit the description of ‘coastland peoples.’ I mean just go to any Asian port and you will see Harbour’s filled with little house boats and people eating everything that lives in the ocean and Usher wanted to identify Mediterranean people who feared the Ocean as being ‘coastland people? 2nd their blessing was to be enlarged, 3rd they would be separated from the descendants of Shem and Ham.
The writings throughout the Old and New Testament is about the descendants of Shem and Ham and all their interactions and the only thing said about Japheth’s descendants in the OT is prophetical about Gog and Magog, names associated with the Mongolian people, hordes who came from the east to conquer Europe. So if I’m correct on all of this it would answer your question about why so many Europeans and when it comes to America, well just look at us! Benjamin Franklin wanted his new nation to be called New Israel, he might have been a deist, but in his days that only meant he was like an OT Jew, rejecting the idea that Jesus was more than a great teacher / prophet. With that as a foundation and the liberty given to Jews in American, not seen throughout Europe, it is no wonder that Israelite and Jewish people from all over the world have come here to establish what could be the stick of Ephraim, Ezekiel 37:16 before 17 takes place.
Wouldn't you agree this agrees with Scripture;
'God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Cor.1:21)
'…the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written' (Romans 1:16-17)
'For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness' (Romans 4:3)
'Therefore, having been justified by faith' (Romans 5:1)
No I would not agree since you are putting the cart before the horse, as does the Church of Christ with baptism. The idea that those who are saved, to believe is an indicative not an imperative. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to those who believe. Again it sounds like an imperative, but the point is those who believe have had some type of experience before they actually believe. I know you read my testimony that I shared over at ‘The Role of Hell in the Gospel Message?’ For years and years I felt like a freak since other people I fellowshipped with were ‘easy-believe-ism Baptist’ I found very, very few who had the same salvation experience. I met all kinds of people who professed to have believed in Jesus, still struggling with sin or living a compromising lifestyle, so I just had to except the fact that God did not do to everyone what He did to me. Then I started hanging out with Reformed Calvinistic people at Dr. Morey’s church and I met all kinds of people who had the same experience that I shared on the ‘Hell Post’ then later I started hanging out with more Calvary Chapel types who were coming to my Bible Studies who had also experience dramatic transformations. And with all of them as I asked key questions they sensed God dealing with them about their sin causing them to fall before God; after that they confessed Christ to be their Lord and began to believe. Just like the testimony of Saul when God knocked Saul down, blinding him, he asked who it was, but Paul called Him Lord.
So tell me why is it to the Jew first and then to the Greek? You see it was the righteousness of God that was revealed to the Jew first and later God showed it to the Greeks. Does that have anything to do with God revealing Himself to the Jews first; seeing that the Jews from Nazareth was following Jesus for some time before Andrew brought the Greeks to see Jesus, wow Jesus just ignored them and when God revealed Himself to the Jewish disciples they heard His voice, but to the Greeks it was nothing more than thunder. You see it was not Jesus time, He had to experience that death after being falsely accused, then be resurrected before Jesus told His disciples to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. And tell me who were the Hellenist? They were Jews who looked, spoke and acted like Greeks! And if you read primary source documentation, not scripture, instead of believing stupid 23-yr old doctrinal candidates like Phillip Usher, you would know that a Jewish High Priest, Jonathan Maccabaeus 150 years before the birth of Jesus said the Greeks in Sparta and those in Rome members in of Senate were descendants of Abraham and Jacob. It is clear from that record that Jonathan was inviting the people of those two great cities; to Jerusalem to celebrate the ‘Feast of Israel’ and renew the confederacy they once had at a time in the past. So tell me when that was? Hey I’m not going to give you all the answers; you do some research and tell me what document it was from?
And what does it mean that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith? You see Abraham was the first one and then as we go through the Scriptures other men believed God. So even though God made all these promises to Abraham in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 it is not until Abraham is willing to take the life of his son that God reveals how great Abraham’s faith was, but obviously Abram revealed his belief in God when he moved his whole household down to the Land of Canaan, where they would be in danger. We actually see the righteousness of God as He saves unrighteous men from generation to generation; then we see this as we go through the Scriptures.
So, what does it mean to be justified by faith? Faith can’t mean the same thing as believe, the word believe is not an action word, but the word faith is an action word. Faith is not something you can make a mental decision about or for, but the word to believe is to give a mental acceptance to some revelation or information. To have faith is to take action based upon that belief, therefore the reaction of faith in a persons life is the result of God doing the work. This is why it says in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we are His workmanship, birthed through the call of the Father, the conviction of His Spirit, or the sacrifice of the Son to do good works, this is what God predestined, us unto adoption as His children and we were predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His Own Will, not our will.
If Paul thought election was by His choosing - unrelated to our accepting the scripture and repentance - then Paul would have laid that down first, but Paul lays the foundation of Faith from Romans 1-8, 'then' proceeds to answer the question of the Jews following all this;
'I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh…' (9:2-…)
It is the Jews God foreknew and who were elected.
Yes it is by His choosing, but He has designed through what He calls faith that we take the action of faith that there is a change in the direction of our life so others can see His workmanship so that His Righteousness is revealed from faith to faith. And yes part of believing is not giving a mental assent to His existence, but that we give a mental assent to accepting what the Scriptures say about Him, us and what He is doing in our lives, this is what comes through our being born from above, we are born of the Holy Spirit, which comes before our ability to believe; then the evidence of our ability to believe is our active reaction to what He says. We believe, we read His Word, we go to church, and we get baptized, all of these are the activities of faith and if there is no activity, then we have an empty faith and there is no evidence for our justification. This is why the Calvinist ‘Golden Chain’ starts with: those He foreknew, the descendants of Jacob being “called according to His purpose,” and He predestined that some would be conformed to becoming like Jesus, and those He was conforming (an evidence of faith) He would justify with the blood of Christ, and those showing forth the workmanship of God in their life would expect to be glorified.
Those Paul had great sorrow and unceasing grief in heart for were not all Jews of his time or all Jews of all time, but those Jews Paul knew personally, those he was close to when he was persecuting people of faith. He was not willing to give his salvation up for all Jews, he was probably glad that some of them were going to Hell, but those Jews he had affection for, his unsaved family members who now rejected him, he was willing to give up his salvation that they all might be saved. Now Romans 10 is not referring to those Jewish friends and family, but God’s plan in saving the singular seed of Jacob, excluding the descendants of Ishmael and Esau, which means he also rejected the Gentiles that Steve talks about, but saves the Gentiles Steve is ignorant of; I’ll eventually get Steve straighten out, since he has already straightened me out on things, years before we first met. And I know this will blow you away, but those of Israel in chapter 11 are not the Jews of chapter 9 or the Patriarchs seen in God’s sovereign choice chapter 10. The Israel in chapter 11 were those of the northern tribes of the house of Israel, who had been cast off and as a wild olive branch were being grafted back in to the holy olive tree of God’s election, in this way salvation can come to all of Israel, not just the Jews who were the last faithful remnant, yet they still rejected their Messiah. We know this because of the context of Elijah who challenged the Baal worshipping Israelites in the north, not the faithful Jews of Elijah’s days living in the south. Going back to chapter 9 yes Paul knew his brethren were of the elect, but he was still praying that God had mercy on them to eventually save them before their death.
My synopsis is;
I believe God 'calls', and people need to respond.
(Otherwise repentance, preaching, believing, trusting, etc. is rendered meaningless, no matter what RC Sproul says)
People are drawn by hearing or reading His Word, with the light of His Spirit on their heart 'prior'' to conversion, they can believe or 'not' choose to follow the Spirit and the Words 'prompting' to believe.
If they do believe, it is still God who makes the final choice to accept the sincerity and surety of our belief, so it is still God who chooses those who have faith to be saved (So that no man may boast before God).
Yes I agree with you that God calls some, but we are to proclaim the Gospel to all and just because some respond today does not mean their family members are not of the elect, of course they would be, but God has not saved them yet, and when God extends His convicting power through the Holy Spirit you know he is working through the preaching of His Word. No again you have it turned around, when God is doing His work, convicting men of sin, He has made His choice, nothing to do with sincerity or our belief. The best way I can put is that faith arises in the life of a believer when the Holy Spirit is indwelling the person being saved; in this way no man may boast before God.
OK, I’m in trouble now, PapaJ.