How many Calvinists/Arminians do we have?

[Guest]

From all that I have read by Catholics, including a book of instruction to young people, I have never encountered the teaching, "We are saved by faith and works." I think that concept about Catholics is a misunderstanding by certain Protestants. I have yet to see any evidence of it.

Indeed, the "easy believist" types have accused me of believing in "salvation by works" also. That is not my position. But I do know that scripture teaches that permanent life ("eternal" life if you prefer) is definitely related to works. It's not works per se that Paul spoke against in Galatians; it's "works of the law".

This same Paul had this to say in relating works to permanent life:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)

Notice that in this passage there is not a word about "faith" as being an element in receiving "eternal life."

We do read elsewhere that salvation takes place through faith. But "salvation" is a greatly misunderstood concept. We are being saved (present process) from sin. This is a work of God, but not a sovereign work. We must co-operate with His enabling grace. By faith we expect to be delivered from sin. This process of being delivered from sin is "salvation."

[Guest]

Paidion: Hmmmm. I guess I never really researched what the Catholics believe. Do we have a former Catholic here that could tells us exactly what Catholics believe about salvation?

loaves

[Guest]

http://www.cephasministry.com/catholic_ ... tians.html

"As sacrifice, the Eucharist is also offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead…"

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the [Roman Catholic] Church…is necessary for salvation…Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse to either enter it or to remain in it."

If those things are true, Catholics seem to believe in "salvation by works." What do some of you other folks say?

loaves

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

From all that I have read by Catholics, including a book of instruction to young people, I have never encountered the teaching, "We are saved by faith and works." I think that concept about Catholics is a misunderstanding by certain Protestants. I have yet to see any evidence of it.

Paidion, I do not wish to say anything incorrect about Catholic dogma and appreciate correction. However, consider the following from the book "The Teaching of the Catholic Church", thirty-third edition. This work is a compilation of the official beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church.

Pages 308-309 The General Council of Florence (1439) :

"The fourth sacrament is penance, of which as it were the matter consists of the actions of the penitent which are in three parts. The first of these is contrition of the heart, which consists of sorrrow for sin committed and the intention not to sin in the future. The second is oral confession, whereby the sinner confesses to the priest all the sins he remembers in their entirity. The third is the satisfaction for sins according to the judgement of the priest, which is mainly achieved by prayer, fasting and almsdeeds.

Page 313, The General Council of Trent (1551) :

Regarding the necessity of penance for the forgiveness of sins commited after baptism: ".....we are by no means able to arrive by the sacrament of penance without many tears and labours on our part, divine justice demanding this, so that penance has been rightly called by the Fathers a laborious kind of baptism. This sacrament is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after baptism, as baptism is for those who have not been regenerated."

Page 322, anathema is pronounced on any who "....shall say that God always pardons the whole penalty together with the guilt and that the satisfaction of penitents is nothing else than the faith by which they perceive that Christ has satisfied for them."

Page 402, The General Council of Trent (1547)

Anathema is pronounced on "....anyone who shall say the good works of one justified are in such a manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified does not truly merit by the good works that he does by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the atainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory."

Would it be fair to say they believe in faith + works to attain eternal life?

[Guest]

Homer: You hit the spot!! Good research! Your conclusions are supported by loaves.

loaves

[Guest]

I find it very interesting that no Calvinists have participated in your poll. Why do you think that is?

From a teacher friend's notes on the different theological systems, I bring this for your edification:

The Pelagian Heresy—The heresy known commonly as “Pelagianism” was formulated in the fifth century by three men named Pelagius, Coelestius, and Julian. They were all learned men having cultural prominence and known character. Pelagius was a Briton and a monk, Coelestius a teacher, and Julian an Italian bishop.

a. Pelagian thought was fundamentally defined by a single, overarching principle, namely ability limits obligation. As such, Pelagius reasoned that it was absurd for God to demand from man what he was unable to render, and he developed his theology around the understanding that man must have the plenary ability to do and be whatever God could justly require of him.

b. This understanding drove out ideas concerning fallen man, his sin, and salvation that were immediately recognized and condemned as heresy by the Church.

i. With regard to free will Pelagius reasoned that man had absolute freedom and control of his will. Not only was the will of man entirely self-determined so as to depend solely on his inward states, those states themselves were under complete subjection to the man. This is what Pelagius meant by plenary ability; at any given time, and under any given circumstance, every person has absolute ability to choose between that which is inherently and practically good and that which is evil. Consequently, he believed that it was possible for a person, through his own diligent pursuit of holiness, to live a life free from sin.

ii. Because of this plenary ability, a man’s sin is nothing more than his deliberate, volitional choice of evil over good. For this reason, Pelagius necessarily rejected the doctrine of original sin, teaching that the actual guilt attributable to each person was the result only of the sinful deeds personally committed. Adam, also responsible only for his own sin, did not impute any guilt to his descendents.


iii. As such, every man is born into the world in the same state in which Adam was created. Logically, then, Adam’s sin only affected himself, except insofar as it provided a sinful example for his progeny. There was, therefore, no imputation of Adam’s sin to his descendents; every person was condemned purely for the sins he actually committed.

c. Because of the nature of this heresy, Pelagius held that man was indeed capable of living a sinless life; not only theoretically, but in actuality. The power to do so was retained by every person subject only to his own choices in the free exercise of his will.

i. A necessary corollary to this belief is the idea that man does not need the gospel, or even the sacrifice of Christ, to be saved. He is fully capable in and of himself of living an obedient, holy life, the gospel simply rendering such obedience much easier.

ii. Another corollary that proceeds out of this heresy is the denial of the necessity of God’s grace in effecting the salvation of men. Pelagius redefined grace as nothing more than the generic goodness of God as it expresses itself in the lives of people, a goodness that has granted to all men their faculties of reason and free will whereby they are able to order their own lives in accordance with true godliness. It was in this sense, then, that he understood the place of, and need for, God’s grace.

2. Semi-Pelagian And Derivative Theologies

a. Arminian Soteriology—Early in the seventeenth century Jacob Arminius introduced a system of soteriology in the Reformed churches of Holland. Immediately this doctrine was formally and unanimously rejected as heretical by the Synod of Dort. Subsequently, advocates of the system presented a remonstrance against the pronouncement of the Synod. Initially known as the Remonstrants, they later were called Arminians after the founder of the system. The major tenets of this system as they pertain to the doctrine of salvation are as follows:

i. All men inherit from Adam a corrupted nature that inclines them toward sin. There is, however, no culpability due to original sin because there is no imputation of the sin of Adam to his offspring. Men are accountable solely for their own voluntary acts of sin and the consequences that inevitably proceed from those acts.

ii. Though all men have a corrupted nature they have not lost all capacity to do that which is good. This system teaches that such ability is necessary to human nature so that the loss of it would constitute the loss of essential humanity.

iii. Despite the retention of the essential capacity to do good, this is insufficient to cause a person to return to God. Men are in need of the assisting, motivating grace of God in order to attain salvation and achieve a life of holiness.

iv. All men are granted sufficient grace from God as would secure their salvation. As such, the grace of God is distributed in equal measure to everyone, that grace being intended to bring all men to repentance, faith, and obedience.

v. It is those who, in the capable, autonomous exercise of their own free will, cooperate with, and continue in, this divine grace who are ultimately saved.

vi. The predestination unto life belongs only to those who thus believe. In this sense, then, predestination is directed toward a class of people rather than distinct individuals. Therefore, this system holds that election refers generically only to God’s intention to save men; it does not in any way refer to the specific election of certain individuals.

b. Wesleyan Soteriology—Under John Wesley and his associates this system received some modification, becoming known as Evangelical Arminianism. Although it substantially follows the system set forth by Jacob Arminius, there are essential modifications that cause it to differ from the Semi-Pelagianism of pure Arminian teaching.

i. Wesleyan soteriology concedes that the Fall did not merely incline man toward sin, it produced a complete moral depravity that renders every person entirely polluted through the inheritance of original sin.

ii. This system denies that man has any capability whatsoever within his fallen nature to cooperate with the grace of God.

iii. While all men inherit an entirely depraved nature from Adam, the guilt that results from the imputation of Adam’s sin was removed for all men by the justification which has been granted to all through the righteousness of Christ.

iv. The capacity of man to cooperate with the grace of God is not due to anything within the realm of his fallen nature, but results from the universal influence attributed to the justifying work of Christ that was accomplished on behalf of all men.

Every infant, therefore, is born free from condemnation because of the righteousness of Christ, and with a seed of divine grace implanted into him. As he grows, if he nurtures and faithfully exercises this grace it will result in his eventual salvation. Therefore, it is those who duly improve the grace given to them at birth, and persevere to the end, who are ordained unto eternal life. As such, God purposes, from all eternity, to save those whom He foresees will thus persevere in faith and obedience.

c. Lutheran Soteriology—Although the teaching of the Lutheran Church has undergone changes over the centuries, the essential principles of its soteriology very closely parallel Evangelical Arminianism.

i. God, from His general benevolence to a fallen race, has willed their salvation by a sincere intention.

ii. In effecting this general purpose of benevolence indiscriminately toward men, God determined to send His Son to make full satisfaction for their sins.

iii. Satisfaction thus having been made, God purposed to give to all men the means of salvation and the capacity to avail themselves of His mercy.

iv. Those who so avail themselves of these means, and do not actively and persistently reject the grace of God, will be saved.

v. As with Wesleyan soteriology, God predestinates those unto salvation whom He foresees will cooperate with the means of salvation and not resist His grace so as to be eternally lost.

3. Augustinian Theology—The foundational principle of this system is the absolute, unqualified sovereignty of God. He alone reigns supreme over all that exists so that nothing does or can occur apart from His express will, either as accomplished by His own power or through another decreed agency. As such, this sovereignty necessarily extends to all of the issues that pertain to the salvation of men. Not only does the Scripture support this understanding of God, human reason and experience also lead to the same conclusion, man naturally crying out to this supreme being for deliverance from all evil, and universally attributing to this deity all provision and blessing. Within the Augustinian system, then, there are numerous major doctrinal points, all of which fall under the overarching truth that “Jehovah reigns”.

a. Preemminent in Augustinian theology is the assertion that the glory of God, the manifestation of His perfections, is the highest and ultimate end of all things. It was toward that end that God created all things that exist, including man himself as His greatest creation, together with the entire plan of providence and redemption.

b. In the creation of man, God made Adam the federal head over the whole of the human race and placed him in a state of probation before Him.

c. Having sinned against God in the Fall, Adam brought all of his posterity into a state of condemnation, utter sinfulness, and undiminished misery from which no man has any capability whatsoever to deliver himself. Not only does every man bear the guilt and condemnation of his own sin, he is born into the world carrying the imputed guilt of Adam, the federal head of all of the human race.

d. Out of the totality of fallen mankind, God sovereignly elected for Himself an unknowable number of individuals unto salvation while leaving the remainder of men to receive the just recompense of their sin and rebellion. This election had no basis in any foreseen merit in the creature, perceived or genuine, but was strictly and entirely in accordance with His will and good pleasure.

e. Having thus elected certain individuals unto eternal salvation, God sent His Son into the world to become a man, to obey, suffer, and die for His people thereby making full satisfaction for their sin and bringing in everlasting righteousness so as to render their ultimate salvation absolutely certain.
f. The Holy Spirit, while contending with all men through common grace so as to be the restrainer of evil and exciter of good, exercises His power in a saving and efficacious manner only on behalf of the elect.

g. Those whom God has chosen unto eternal life are those for whom Christ sacrificed Himself in accordance with God’s eternal plan of redemption. For this reason, all who are thus chosen will most certainly be brought to the knowledge of the truth, to repentance and the exercise of faith, and to the perseverance in godliness and obedience unto the end.

[Guest]

I find this discussion more helpful looking at it from God's perspective. Does God, in His infinite wisdom, choose an elect group of people (He did with the Jews undoubtedly...and thus not with the Canaanites) or did He pass out a message to all and leave it up to them to accept it? I find the latter impossible to accept. The way Jesus handed out the great commission was one in which it makes little sense to believe that is up to the individual's free will on how to respond to the message. It makes far more sense to me, as someone who did not grow up with any Calvinistic doctrine to understand that God is already herding His flock, or, calling His chosen unto Himself as the spirit moves on them through the preaching of the Gospel...

Some claim that this is unfair. I say it seems very unfair to me that God would allow us fallible human beings to have ultimate say, in our complete sinful and ignorant nature to have the final say on whether we get to be "In Christ" or not. It seems much more fair to me that God, being far wiser and full of justice than we, would call upon those who pleases unto Himself and not others, for whatever reason, only our just God knows.

[Guest]

I find this discussion more helpful looking at it from God's perspective. Does God, in His infinite wisdom, choose an elect group of people (He did with the Jews undoubtedly...and thus not with the Canaanites)

So God chose the Jews? (I agree) Why then are they no all saved? Jesus tells us:

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

God chose that we would be saved through the blood of Christ. Jesus has done the "work", so to speak. The Holy Spirit draws all men, but even through the Gospel, some resist the Holy Spirit to their own condemnation. (Acts 7:51, Luke 7:30)

[Guest]

Have you never heard an atheist complain that wished they could believe? I have heard that on many occasions. They desire to believe, but cannot. Why is that? I don't think it's intentional on their part. If that were the case, they could will themselves to have faith.
What prevents their faith?

[Guest]

Many things may inhibit one's ability to believe in God. A few come to mind. Others are welcome to add to the list:

1. Prejudice
2. Pride
3. Cherished sin
3. Deception due to disinformation
4. The devil's devices to resist a sinner's conversion