A Calvinist argument I don't understand...

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:54 pm

If, as you insist, open theism is correct, then you can not possibly know, nor can God, that all will eventually repent in hell. They may only become more hardened. Hasn't happened yet so it must be unknowable and only a wish.
It's more than a wish, Homer. Although a lot of reconciliationists are Calvinists and think they have to be in order to uphold universal reconciliation, this is just not the case.

Because the future cannot be known, you are technically correct in saying that it cannot be known that all will eventually repent. But practically, you are incorrect. Indeed, the probability that some (or even one) will hold out forever is close to zero (if not zero).

Please reconsider the analogy of tossing a thousand coins on a large area of special sticky fly paper enclosed in a wooden frame . The analogy is far from perfect, since coins are not free-will agents. Nevertheless, I think the analogy has some merit. This special fly paper has the property of always sticking to the tails side of the coins, but never to the heads. Let's say we want all of the coins to eventually turn up as heads. Throw the coins onto the fly paper. We would expect about half of them to turn up heads and the other half tails. But of course, it could happen that 75% of them (or even more) turn up tails. In any case, if we move the frame up in such a manner as to toss the coins again, those which turned up heads will stay stuck to the fly paper, while the rest are tossed again. Now we would expect a number of the newly-tossed coins to turn up as heads also. But even if ALL of them turned up tails, we keep on tossing.
We toss as long as any coins turn up tails. It seems obvious that we can "know" in some sense, that all of the coins will eventually turn up heads, even though the tossing of coins is a future event. Of course, theoretically, we could toss the coins for a week, or a year, or 10 years, and there could still be some coins turn up tails. But would anyone bet on it even if the odds were 1000 to 1? I don't think so. However, it is possible that some could continue to turn up as tails for 10 years, or even a life time. But what if some immortal creature had forever to toss the coins. Surely they would eventually all be heads up! It is still conceptually possible that they never would throughout eternity, but practically it would be impossible.

So if God works on the lost in hell for ages of ages, not only through tough disciplinary measures, but through sending His perfected saints to minister to them, does it seem possible that any could hold out forever?
As in the case of the coins, it is conceptually possible, but not practically possible.

This is why I am able to believe, and confidently assert that all will be reconciled to God. It's much, much, more than wishful thinking! Of course, you are right that technically, I cannot know this to be the case.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

_MoGrace2u
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Post by _MoGrace2u » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:23 am

First problem: What about judgment?

(Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

(Ezek 18:21-24 KJV) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. {22} All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. {23} Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? {24} But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

(John 8:21 KJV) Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

(John 8:24 KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The hope of our eternal destiny ought not to lie with the toss of a coin!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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