Hi Steve
Well actually according to the text it says that Jesus said " You do not believe because you are not of my sheep John 10:26.The very powerful statement saying why they cant believe. Then He goes on to list some descriptions ( verse 27-28) of His sheep. The only place in this text that implies how they became His sheep is that the Father gave them to Him. ( verse 29).Which by the way ties nicely into John 6:36-40 where it states in verses 37 -39 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day". Here among other great things are the Words of Jesus saying He came to do His Fathers will and what is that will.....to not loose any that He has given Him. Now that is super powerful and in light of it we must ask ourselves this question? Can Jesus fulfill the will of His Father? I think yes.
I enjoyed the radio analogy but I am finding it hard to apply it to this text.In my mind its slightely presuming upon the text itself which isnt fair.The text really should be allowed to speak for itself. Jesus does list 6 elements that apply to His sheep but nowhere implies they make them His sheep.
1. Hear His Voice
2.He knows them
3.They follow Me
4.They possess eternal life
5.They shall never perish
6. No one can snatch them from the Fathers hand.
Lord Bless you
Steve
Read it and weep!
Hi Steve,
I hope you don't mind my taking exception to a few things you said, and explaining an alternative viewpoint.
You are basing a major premise upon the statement of Jesus, "You do not believe because you are not of my sheep" (John 10:26), which premise is not suggested in the verse. In your mind (and you are in good company with the whole category of Calvinists), this verse provides a "very powerful statement saying why they cant believe."
I don't see that this verse tells us anything about a person's ability or inability to believe. It tells us that those people didn't believe what Jesus is saying because they were not His sheep, that is, they did not accept Him in the role of their Shepherd (Messiah), so they were not disposed to believe His specific teachings either.
If a Mormon were to ask you why you don't accept the authority of some teaching of Joseph Smith's (let us say, about human deification), you could truly say, "I do not believe him, because I am not one of his sheep." That is, you do not have, as Mormons do, any preexisting commitment to accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet or spiritual leader. Hence, you are not particularly inclined to believe his peculiar doctrines.
However, making this statement would not address the question of whether you are or are not capable of becoming a believer in Joseph Smith, or in his doctrines. Presumably, that option is open to you, as it is to others. Unlike others, however, you have not chosen to embrace him as your spiritual shepherd, and feel, therefore, no obligation or inclination to submit to his doctrines.
In Jesus' day, some Jews were acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah and their Shepherd. These disciples, therefore, believed the things He taught them. Other Jews did not recognise Him as their Messiah or Shepherd. Not surprisingly, then, they did not believe or adhere to His teaching. They were not His sheep; why should they embrace His teachings?
Yet, they apparently had every opportunity to change and to become His sheep, just like the ones who had done so. Jesus presumed that they could believe, if they wished, and He urged them to do so. Speaking to the same people, apparently, Jesus said:
"though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and believe..." (John 10:37-38).
For this reason, I do not follow the Calvinist suggestion that, "You do not believe..." necessarily implies, "You cannot believe..." There are many things that I do not believe, but which I would be capable of believing, if I were to allow myself to be persuaded of them.
You also have expressed concern about how these people who were His sheep had managed to become such. You write:
"The only place in this text that implies how they became His sheep is that the Father gave them to Him. ( verse 29)."
and,
"Jesus does list 6 elements that apply to His sheep but nowhere implies they make Him His sheep."
I would agree that Jesus does not imply that the six qualifications describe how the people became His sheep. But these items do define who is and who is not His sheep. That is, the act of hearing His voice and following may or may not tell us how such people initially became Christ's sheep, but they do indeed place perimeters around the class that are entitled to be included in that category. In whatever manner they may have become sheep, only they qualify as His sheep who meet the condition of hearing and following Him. This much is stated unambiguously (v.27).
If a man were to say, "All of my children stand over six feet tall, have hazel eyes, red hair, and are ambidextrous," we would not think that a person could become one of his children by having these characteristics, or that his children became his children by acquiring these traits. This is not what he is telling us. But, having this information, we could conclude, if we met a person who did not have these traits, that he was not a child of this man.
Likewise, if we meet someone who does not hear and follow Christ, we know that we are not looking at one of His sheep, and it cannot, therefore, be said that this person will "never perish," since this is only said of those who are His sheep.
It is true, also, that only those given to Christ by the Father are really His sheep. But this does not tell us whether the Father had considered anything in them (e.g., their faith) as the cause for His giving them to Christ. The Bible everywhere seems to tell us that faith is indeed a condition that God takes into consideration.
Jesus Himself said that those whom the Father had given Him were the same people who already belonged to God, that is, the faithful remnant in Israel (John 17:6). But if any of those who had such faith, and were given to Christ, would cease to believe and follow Him, then, by His own definition, they could no longer be considered His sheep, and could not be assured that they "will never perish."
You raise another concern worth reconsidering:
"'This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day'. Here among other great things are the Words of Jesus saying He came to do His Fathers will and what is that will.....to not loose any that He has given Him. ... Can Jesus fulfill the will of His Father? I think yes."
Jesus can, and did, perform every part of the Father's will that was in His control to perform. That is, in His own obedience, Christ fulfilled His Father's will for Him. However, the question of losing sheep or children is not entirely left to Christ's volition or control. Sadly for God (and us!) it is possible for God to lose children of His (Isa.1:2/ Luke 15:24--but happily for God and us, they can also be found!). The element of free will determines whether each individual will do the will of the Father, concerning himself, or not.
For example, It was God's will to gather the people of Jerusalem to Himself, but they "were not willing" (Matt.23:37). It is, in fact, the will of God that every person repent, and that none perish (2 Pet.3:9), and if it were in Christ's power alone to see God's will done for every man, no human being could be lost.
It was God's will for the Pharisees to be baptised by John, but they successfully resisted God's will, and it didn't happen (Luke 7:30). It is not the will of God that any believer fornicate (1 Thess.4:3), but the sad reality is that God has often been disappointed with His people in this matter.
So also, it is not the will of the Father that any of those given to Christ should be lost (John 6:39). But, human will being what it is, there is no more guarantee of God's will being fulfilled in this matter than in the cases just mentioned.
You wrote: "I enjoyed the radio analogy but I am finding it hard to apply it to this text. In my mind its slightly presuming upon the text itself which isnt fair.The text really should be allowed to speak for itself."
I am not aware of presuming anything upon the text unfairly. I was illustrating from similar examples of identical wording, that the words of the passage say much less than those who wish to press it into the service of "unconditional eternal security" tend to want it to say.
I fully agree with you that the text must be allowed to speak for itself. However, it should not be forced to speak for a particular theological camp, if it exhibits no desire to do so. This passage (like all passages), I think, would prefer to be interpreted by the following hermeneutical canons:
1. Consideration of the actual phrases used, including verb tenses;
2. Consideration of the immediate context, as well as comparison to similar phraseology in the same Gospel;
3. Harmonization with all that Jesus and the biblical writers taught on the same topic elsewhere.
If these are sound hermeneutic principles, and if they are applied to John 10, I believe that we can quite allow the text to speak for itself without forcing it to teach a doctrine that neither it, nor any other passage in scripture, shows any inclination to teach.
I don't know if you have yet looked-up the passages presented by me and by others here who have disagreed with your position, but if not, I would really encourage you to look carefully at each one, and, in each case, let the text speak for itself.
God bless you,
I hope you don't mind my taking exception to a few things you said, and explaining an alternative viewpoint.
You are basing a major premise upon the statement of Jesus, "You do not believe because you are not of my sheep" (John 10:26), which premise is not suggested in the verse. In your mind (and you are in good company with the whole category of Calvinists), this verse provides a "very powerful statement saying why they cant believe."
I don't see that this verse tells us anything about a person's ability or inability to believe. It tells us that those people didn't believe what Jesus is saying because they were not His sheep, that is, they did not accept Him in the role of their Shepherd (Messiah), so they were not disposed to believe His specific teachings either.
If a Mormon were to ask you why you don't accept the authority of some teaching of Joseph Smith's (let us say, about human deification), you could truly say, "I do not believe him, because I am not one of his sheep." That is, you do not have, as Mormons do, any preexisting commitment to accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet or spiritual leader. Hence, you are not particularly inclined to believe his peculiar doctrines.
However, making this statement would not address the question of whether you are or are not capable of becoming a believer in Joseph Smith, or in his doctrines. Presumably, that option is open to you, as it is to others. Unlike others, however, you have not chosen to embrace him as your spiritual shepherd, and feel, therefore, no obligation or inclination to submit to his doctrines.
In Jesus' day, some Jews were acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah and their Shepherd. These disciples, therefore, believed the things He taught them. Other Jews did not recognise Him as their Messiah or Shepherd. Not surprisingly, then, they did not believe or adhere to His teaching. They were not His sheep; why should they embrace His teachings?
Yet, they apparently had every opportunity to change and to become His sheep, just like the ones who had done so. Jesus presumed that they could believe, if they wished, and He urged them to do so. Speaking to the same people, apparently, Jesus said:
"though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and believe..." (John 10:37-38).
For this reason, I do not follow the Calvinist suggestion that, "You do not believe..." necessarily implies, "You cannot believe..." There are many things that I do not believe, but which I would be capable of believing, if I were to allow myself to be persuaded of them.
You also have expressed concern about how these people who were His sheep had managed to become such. You write:
"The only place in this text that implies how they became His sheep is that the Father gave them to Him. ( verse 29)."
and,
"Jesus does list 6 elements that apply to His sheep but nowhere implies they make Him His sheep."
I would agree that Jesus does not imply that the six qualifications describe how the people became His sheep. But these items do define who is and who is not His sheep. That is, the act of hearing His voice and following may or may not tell us how such people initially became Christ's sheep, but they do indeed place perimeters around the class that are entitled to be included in that category. In whatever manner they may have become sheep, only they qualify as His sheep who meet the condition of hearing and following Him. This much is stated unambiguously (v.27).
If a man were to say, "All of my children stand over six feet tall, have hazel eyes, red hair, and are ambidextrous," we would not think that a person could become one of his children by having these characteristics, or that his children became his children by acquiring these traits. This is not what he is telling us. But, having this information, we could conclude, if we met a person who did not have these traits, that he was not a child of this man.
Likewise, if we meet someone who does not hear and follow Christ, we know that we are not looking at one of His sheep, and it cannot, therefore, be said that this person will "never perish," since this is only said of those who are His sheep.
It is true, also, that only those given to Christ by the Father are really His sheep. But this does not tell us whether the Father had considered anything in them (e.g., their faith) as the cause for His giving them to Christ. The Bible everywhere seems to tell us that faith is indeed a condition that God takes into consideration.
Jesus Himself said that those whom the Father had given Him were the same people who already belonged to God, that is, the faithful remnant in Israel (John 17:6). But if any of those who had such faith, and were given to Christ, would cease to believe and follow Him, then, by His own definition, they could no longer be considered His sheep, and could not be assured that they "will never perish."
You raise another concern worth reconsidering:
"'This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day'. Here among other great things are the Words of Jesus saying He came to do His Fathers will and what is that will.....to not loose any that He has given Him. ... Can Jesus fulfill the will of His Father? I think yes."
Jesus can, and did, perform every part of the Father's will that was in His control to perform. That is, in His own obedience, Christ fulfilled His Father's will for Him. However, the question of losing sheep or children is not entirely left to Christ's volition or control. Sadly for God (and us!) it is possible for God to lose children of His (Isa.1:2/ Luke 15:24--but happily for God and us, they can also be found!). The element of free will determines whether each individual will do the will of the Father, concerning himself, or not.
For example, It was God's will to gather the people of Jerusalem to Himself, but they "were not willing" (Matt.23:37). It is, in fact, the will of God that every person repent, and that none perish (2 Pet.3:9), and if it were in Christ's power alone to see God's will done for every man, no human being could be lost.
It was God's will for the Pharisees to be baptised by John, but they successfully resisted God's will, and it didn't happen (Luke 7:30). It is not the will of God that any believer fornicate (1 Thess.4:3), but the sad reality is that God has often been disappointed with His people in this matter.
So also, it is not the will of the Father that any of those given to Christ should be lost (John 6:39). But, human will being what it is, there is no more guarantee of God's will being fulfilled in this matter than in the cases just mentioned.
You wrote: "I enjoyed the radio analogy but I am finding it hard to apply it to this text. In my mind its slightly presuming upon the text itself which isnt fair.The text really should be allowed to speak for itself."
I am not aware of presuming anything upon the text unfairly. I was illustrating from similar examples of identical wording, that the words of the passage say much less than those who wish to press it into the service of "unconditional eternal security" tend to want it to say.
I fully agree with you that the text must be allowed to speak for itself. However, it should not be forced to speak for a particular theological camp, if it exhibits no desire to do so. This passage (like all passages), I think, would prefer to be interpreted by the following hermeneutical canons:
1. Consideration of the actual phrases used, including verb tenses;
2. Consideration of the immediate context, as well as comparison to similar phraseology in the same Gospel;
3. Harmonization with all that Jesus and the biblical writers taught on the same topic elsewhere.
If these are sound hermeneutic principles, and if they are applied to John 10, I believe that we can quite allow the text to speak for itself without forcing it to teach a doctrine that neither it, nor any other passage in scripture, shows any inclination to teach.
I don't know if you have yet looked-up the passages presented by me and by others here who have disagreed with your position, but if not, I would really encourage you to look carefully at each one, and, in each case, let the text speak for itself.
God bless you,
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
I didn't read the whole article that you posted, but this section caught my eye. It seems that from Revelation 3:5-6, ("He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”) Jesus blotting someone's name out of the book of life has a direct correlation with confessing him before the Father and His angels.Question 24 – The Book of Life
Is there any difference between the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life?
Yes, the book of life is the book of the living. It is the record too, of profession. From this book names may be blotted out. The Lamb’s book of life is the record of the eternal purpose of God. Names inscribed there are written from the foundation of the world. In other words, one book speaks of responsibility, the other of pure grace.
No Christian will ever have his name blotted out of the Lamb’s book of life, for all such have eternal life--which is unforfeitable and everlasting.
Jesus confessing us before the Father seems to pretty pretty important according to Jesus in Matthew 10:
Matt 10:32-33 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."
Then, in Luke 12, Jesus says basically the same thing referring to the angels of God:
Luke 12:8-9 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God."
There are only two options here... either Jesus confesses us before the Father and angels (eternal life) or Jesus denies us before the Father and His angels (death).
Paralleling these verses to Revelation 3:5-6, Jesus will only confess us before the Father and His angels if our name is written in the Book of Life... thus, if our name is blotted out (which Revelation 3:5-6 implies that it can be), the result would be Him denying us before the Father and His angels. Which would result in eternal death.
There are plenty of other things that can be said about the text of these particular verses, but I am just addressing the issue of the Book of Life not referring to eternal life.
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"How is it that Christians today will pay $20 to hear the latest Christian concert, but Jesus can't draw a crowd?"
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
Hi
Hi Steve
Well actually Im a Calvminian since I believe that Scripture has support for both views if not taken to the extreme. I believe that whosoever will may come. I believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. I also believe that those whom He foreknew He predestined and we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. I dont believe in limited atonement. I dont believe that God sends people to Hell they send themselves. I dont believe a Christian can loose thier salvation. This security of the believer I believe is eternal and that it also means a Christian can once saved never loose thier salvation. Arminiansm and Calvanism in thier extreme only divide the body of Christ. Both the soviergnty of God and the freewill of man are taught in Scripture. Its by faith I accept them both. On the arch way entering heaven we find inscribed " whosoever will may come" and on the other side aftert entering it says " those whom he foreknew He predestined". D.L. Moody put it this way"whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont's are the non-elect".
Lord Bless You
Steve
Well actually Im a Calvminian since I believe that Scripture has support for both views if not taken to the extreme. I believe that whosoever will may come. I believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. I also believe that those whom He foreknew He predestined and we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. I dont believe in limited atonement. I dont believe that God sends people to Hell they send themselves. I dont believe a Christian can loose thier salvation. This security of the believer I believe is eternal and that it also means a Christian can once saved never loose thier salvation. Arminiansm and Calvanism in thier extreme only divide the body of Christ. Both the soviergnty of God and the freewill of man are taught in Scripture. Its by faith I accept them both. On the arch way entering heaven we find inscribed " whosoever will may come" and on the other side aftert entering it says " those whom he foreknew He predestined". D.L. Moody put it this way"whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont's are the non-elect".
Lord Bless You
Steve
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Re: Hi Sean
I would point to John 5:31-47;Crusader wrote: Well in John chapter 10 vs 24- 30 we have the greatest authority giving us the answer and lets let the Word explain itself as we look.
24Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30I and My Father are one."
The Jews are asking Jesus if He is the Christ and he said He already told them which He did back in John 8:58 and clealry they understood Him and we see this in John 10:33 for they clearly give thier reason for wanting to stone Him in verse 33.
Jesus in verse 26 says to them you do not believe because you are not of my sheep.He doesnt say you dont believe and as a result arent of my sheep. He clealry states" but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep" The order of His words are worth taking note of here.. Jesus goes on to say My sheep ( meaning His sheep ) hear My voice and I know them and they follow me" Here we see Jesus saying that the sheep are His and He knows them and they follow Him. When He says they follow Me notice He doesnt anywhere say they follow me sometimes but that they follow Me.He then goes on to say I give them eternal life and they shall never perish( who shall never perish ? well clearly its His sheep.)
I would point to this entire passage as to why some didn't believe. Jesus ends by saying "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" You see, when they ask Jesus "Tell us plainly if you are the Christ" and Jesus said "You do not believe because you are not my sheep" is answered right here. Moses already foretold of Christ and what would happen if they rejected Him:"If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish--the very works that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
"I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
For Moses truly said to the fathers, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. (Acts 3:22-23)
Yet even though they saw Christ and all the signs He performed they did not believe, because they did not believe what Moses wrote about Him. Not because of something arbitrary, but because they wouldn't accept Moses own writings. If they are rejecting Moses own writings, then they have no chance of believing any fulfillment mentioned in Moses's writings.
Notice how it says Jesus said this to those who were believers. He gave an additional condition beyond one time belief which is "abide" or remain.Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32)
He could have just said: "You believe and now can never fall away" instead He says that If you reamain, not just believe for a while but remain, then you are a disciple. This is a conditional statement.[/quote]
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Hi Sean
Calvanists according to what I have read believe in the total depravity of man. That after the fall it was totally impossible for man to be saved apart from Gods grace and mercy. Whereas Arminianists seem to beleive that although man fell they werent totally depraved and there was a little bit of goodness there that could seek after God. I lean towards the total depravity side and that apart from Gods intervention we would be lost forever. It seeme true to me that whom so ever will may come is valid and I beleive God calls everyone,in Romans 1 it says that all men have the evidence of creation and are without excuse. It also seems true to me that when a person hears the Gospel that apart from a jump start revelation at that specific moment from the Holy Spirit a person is powerless to really comprehend saving grace and respond.For by grace you have been saved through faith and it is a gift from God and not of works lest any man should boast. So both seem to be at play here to some degree or another and I think this divine truth wont be understood completely this side of heaven.To further compound an already complex situation we know that God knows all things and clearly must know those that are going to be saved. Is this foreknoledge some how tied into that Ephesians scripture where it emphatically says he CHOSE US.??.Extreme views of Calvanism like, that since God chooses some and rejects others it would mean in its extreme that a baby which dies would then fall into this catagory and theoretically end up in hell because he was never choosen and thats whacky because all babies go to Heaven. On the other hand extreme Arminiansim seems to teach that we keep ourselves in Christ through our will and power leading to a works mentality or worse the concept of sinless perfection. I beleive what we are looking at here are two sides of the same coin. The problem occurs when we divide the Body of Christ over such issues and lean to just one side in exclusion of the other. I dont know if we are allowed to post other webistes on this board but until told otherwise I will. Here is a good site that offers a balance .
Lord Bless You
Steve
http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/ta ... cva.htm#06
Lord Bless You
Steve
http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/ta ... cva.htm#06
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Re: Hi Sean
Man doesn't seek his salvation, this message comes thorugh the Gospel to fallen man, the Holy Spirit convicts fallen man of sin and certainly can reveal the truth of the gospel to fallen man so he can believe. This is different from the Calvinistic veiw that is: God regenerates fallen man, after that he believes and cannot fall away nor be an unbeliever. Then after regeneration comes the Holy Spirit.Crusader wrote:Calvanists according to what I have read believe in the total depravity of man. That after the fall it was totally impossible for man to be saved apart from Gods grace and mercy. Whereas Arminianists seem to beleive that although man fell they werent totally depraved and there was a little bit of goodness there that could seek after God.
Also, Paul states:
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:26)
Don't you agree with the statement:Crusader wrote: On the other hand extreme Arminiansim seems to teach that we keep ourselves in Christ through our will and power leading to a works mentality or worse the concept of sinless perfection.
We are kept by the power of God through faith.
We aren't kept by our own power, but God's but the condition is faith.
Faith is not a work as clearly stated in Romans 4 'The man who does not work but believes God, his faith is credited as righteousness'
Faith is something Abraham did, he believed God, but we are told this is not a work! Nor is it righteous to believe God. Instead God takes our faith and credits it to us AS IF WE WERE righteous. Remeber the passage in Eph 2:8+ that you quoted "not of works", but through faith! If faith was a work Paul couldn't say that. Yet we are kept by the power of God through faith.
Very true but Pelagianism is the extreme, not Arminism. But it's all in how you divide the debate up. I do agree that we share oneness in Christ.Crusader wrote:I beleive what we are looking at here are two sides of the same coin. The problem occurs when we divide the Body of Christ over such issues and lean to just one side in exclusion of the other.
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Sean
Please read this and comment...you will see the war is over...we can all be on the same page. Why debate something which cant be resolved outside the mind of God...both views are taught in Scripture.
Here ya go...
http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/ta ... cva.htm#06
Here ya go...
http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/ta ... cva.htm#06
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Re: Sean
Yes, I've read that some time ago. It offers a pretty good balance. If have just found very little simpathy from Calvinists when you disagree with them. It's kind of like they are saying "We have the perfect revelation from God, and if you don't believe in our doctrines then you must by default believe you are working for, have worked for or can be patted on the back for your choice in salvation".Crusader wrote:Please read this and comment...you will see the war is over...we can all be on the same page. Why debate something which cant be resolved outside the mind of God...both views are taught in Scripture.
Here ya go...
http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/ta ... cva.htm#06
I found a Church not too long ago that I liked but they pushed using these study guides that they made. Looking through them they were clearly made to teach Reformed theology to the people. I never knew the Bible said to do this. I've always maintained the Bible was enough, and adding man's doctrines is the same mistake the Catholic Church made. This Church also said no one could be an Elder or small group bible study leader unless you confessed to have a Reformed view of soteriology. Please tell me, where is that in the Bible? So I debated them on thier statement of faith, which said we are regenerated unto belief (and can never unbelieve at this point) and then we recieve the Holy Spirit. Strangely, they argue this by saying that in Galations 5 it says the fruit of the Spirit is Faith. But they maintain faith comes before the Spirit is received. Curious.
Crusader, this was not aimed at you, I'm just venting.
I just believe the Bible when it says God calls, and man is required to repent and believe God's calling. The Bible teaches both, therefore I believe both.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Hi
Well God knows all things and Im sure long before the Bible was written,even before the Earth was formed He knew people would debate the issue. Even knowing that, He still revealed it . To deabte an issue which is clearly an unattainable win for either side seems odd when you think about it. I think its funny that Christians go to such great lengths to wrangle over things like free will and Gods soviergnty when they are both taught in Scripture.Im kind of laughing as I sit here because since I believe a Chistian is kept by God and cant loose thier salvation Im called a Calvanist. Yet I also believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and that whosoever will may come.Plus I believe we are taught to abide in Jesus. I think to the detriment of Christians we have a lot of pride in our views. We get saved,get a little righteousness and walk with the Lord for 20 or 30 years and brother weve got it all in an nutshell.Its either Calvanism or Armenianism...read my posts I even got into it pretty heavy. Im guilty of the sin of pride in my beliefs, using half the sword to defend half of what Gods revealed while another brother uses the same Book to do the same thing using the other half. We absolutely should discuss and debate truth and exhort people who get whacked out on things like teaching God sends babies to Hell by not choosing them.I like the article I posted because it pretty well says there can be no winner in the debate because both views are taught in the Scripture. To me its something we wont understand fully here. On Churches I think its important to find the one that God has for you. Ive been in a few in 31 years and Ive seen Christians do some of the wierdest things. I went through the sheperding movement which was pretty bad. I saw a Church of 200 one Sunday and due to division the next it was 25. I have people say theyve had a word from the Lord for me and it was about a reliable as a piece of monoply money. Ive seen radical healings and went to a Church at the end of the Jesus movement where the Spirit of God was being poured out tremendously. Ive found a Church weve been in for about 8 years or more and its a Calvary Chapel ...and for me its home. They do teach pre trib rapture,which I think is right,although there are other views of course and Im sure youre aware of them.Its about the love I found there. Its about the teaching of the Word verse by verse. Wherever you do end up going Im sure the Lord will lead you if you ask Him.Our Pastor says Hes glad there are so many different Chrisitan Churches because theres one for every type of person. I think thats true.Gifts during service,no gifts in service,kids in service no kids in service..etc etc. So anyway back to the great debate that for four hundred years has never been won..I think its great to share OUR oppinions of Gods Word but in the end ..thats all they are...because in the final analysis from what Ive read they are both revealed in Scripture.
Steve
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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