Question to Calvinists

Post by **_Suzana** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:58 pm

Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons,
Psa 106:38 and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land was defiled with blood.

Turretinfan wrote:

Suzana:

With respect, I think you're overreaching to view "innocent" there to refer to absolute innocence. It seems easier to understand that passage as referring to innocence in the eyes of man's law.

I think you may be right regarding the meaning of innocent, in this particular verse. I shouldn't have used it.

Incidentally, I think you'll find that the word used is actually:
נק which is Strong's number (Hebrew) 5355.

[ That is the one I quoted. Sorry, I just omitted to paste the first two lines.
H5355
נקיא נקי
nâqîy nâqîy'
naw-kee', naw-kee'
From H5352; innocent: - blameless, clean, clear, exempted, free, guiltless, innocent, quit. ]

My understanding that babies are innocent in God's eyes (until they actually commit sin) is probably better supported by the following:

Eze 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Deu 1:39 And your little ones, who you said would be a prey, and your sons who in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in there. And I will give it to them, and they shall possess it.

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:21 pm

Turretinfan,

You wrote:

With respect, I think you're overreaching to view "innocent" there to refer to absolute innocence. It seems easier to understand that passage as referring to innocence in the eyes of man's law.

And you think the Calvinist does not overreach when he claims that all unregenerate are totally depraved?

And regarding this text:

19. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

You wrote:

If, however, (as we would suggest) the latter group is all in Adam (i.e. Adam's family) and the former group is all in Christ (i.e. Christ's family), then there is no reason to reach a universalist view from the text.

So to fit your paradigm, many means both "all" and "some" men in the same sentence? Hmm....Calvinist version of Humpty Dumpty: "When I read a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:50 am

Hi Turret,

Where in the scripture that tells us babies are unregenerate?

First let's define the meaning of the phrase "The image of God".

This phrase means pure, sinless.

Every single babies were directly created by God just like Adam and Eve and they were created according to His image ( pure, sinless) .

They deviate from the image of God once they start sinning.

The question is when do they start sinning? They start sinning once they become capable of sinning.

If Sin automatically infects a human flesh then Jesus was a sinner also.

Post by **_bshow** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:08 pm

PAULESPINO wrote: First let's define the meaning of the phrase "The image of God".

This phrase means pure, sinless.

Paul,

What is your source for that definition?

Cheers,
Bob

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:37 pm

Hi Bshow1,

What is your source for that definition?

Wisdom.

Because the image of God can not be corrupted and therefore pure.

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:50 pm

Hi Bshow1,

What is your source for that definition?

Numbers 6:7
He shall not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head.

God will only accept clean human or animals because God himself is Holy and therefore God is pure and clean.

Post by **_bshow** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:42 pm

PAULESPINO wrote:Hi Bshow1,

What is your source for that definition?
Wisdom.

Because the image of God can not be corrupted and therefore pure.

Paul,

Why should we accept you as the font of all wisdom?

If the Imago Dei cannot be corrupted, are all men thus sinless?

Cheers,
Bob

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:51 pm

BShow1,

Why should we accept you as the font of all wisdom?

If the Imago Dei cannot be corrupted, are all men thus sinless?

You are right, I don't have the authority but I also mentioned the statement below. The point that I'm trying to make in this thread is that all babies are born sinless.

Hi Bshow1,
Quote:
What is your source for that definition?

Numbers 6:7
He shall not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head.

God will only accept clean human or animals because God himself is Holy and therefore God is pure and clean.

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:56 pm

Correction:

God will not accept unclean human or animals.