Prevenient Grace

[Guest]

And we know that God causes all things to to work together for good to those who love God.... except for Rick C. I guess God has nothing to do but just sit and watch you all day like watching t.v.

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Pr 16:9).

You might have Planned to drive their and planned to do those things, but God established your steps. If he had other plans for you no matter what you wanted or chosen, he would have taken you there instead.

You get the job?

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Pr 16:33).

What has to be done is to see and understand them as they would have been originally understood.

To be understood I do believe that God is smart enough to inspire the exact syntax and grammar from a language that has very strict rules in order to convey meaning from the author by his usage of said language.

Otherwise the only way to understand what the writer had to say is to actually ask the author. Or who is the "arbiter" of said "original meaning"?

[Guest]

Bob, you wrote:
Quote:
The purpose of prevenient grace is not to save anyone, but to make people able to save themselves if they so choose.


I've never heard an Arminian say anything remotely close to this.
No Arminian could ever say they "save" themselves...that's absurd!


Hi Rick,

Yes, I understand that they would never say that. But what it conveys is accurate: that salvation turns on man's choice, not God's choice. Perhaps it would be more acceptable if phrased as "...to make people able to allow God to save them if they so choose."

Rick_C wrote:

(or were you referring to the beliefs of (at least some) Pelagians?).
Pelagians are non-Calvinists...and you wanted non-Calvinists viewpoints.
I don't think any Pelagians post on this forum (that I know of). Anyways, thanks.


I used the term "non-Calvinist" because that's the term most of you use here. "ABC" might be better: "Anything But Calvinism" . My interest was in finding whether there were classical Arminians/Wesleyans here who held to their doctrine of inability, since man's inability is not widely defended here by anyone but the crazy Calvinists.

I lump those who deny man's inability into the "some degree of Pelagianism" camp. That seems to be the majority report around here...

Bob, I think you misunderstand what the Arminian believes -- when I say I believe prevenient grace gives me the ability to "believe," it's not saying I believe I save myself. It is God who saved me both by enabling me through prevenient grace and also by regenerating me upon my belief. It is not my belief that saves me -- it is God working after I believe that saves me. For some reason, it pleases Him to wait on my belief -- He could save me without it if He wanted, or refuse in the face of it if He wanted -- He assures us, however, that He does not so want and will not do so.

[Guest]

Yes, I understand that they would never say that. But what it conveys is accurate: that salvation turns on man's choice, not God's choice.

Bob, I think you misunderstand what the Arminian believes -- when I say I believe prevenient grace gives me the ability to "believe," it's not saying I believe I save myself. It is God who saved me both by enabling me through prevenient grace and also by regenerating me upon my belief. It is not my belief that saves me -- it is God working after I believe that saves me. For some reason, it pleases Him to wait on my belief -- He could save me without it if He wanted, or refuse in the face of it if He wanted -- He assures us, however, that He does not so want and will not do so.

Hi Darin,

No I don't misunderstand what the Arminian believes. I just see that they are inconsistent in this. Again, when salvation turns on man's choice and not God's choice, at the end of the day it is your choice, belief, response, whatever that makes salvation happen for you. The only "sine qua non" in salvation is man's part.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Hi Darin,

No I don't misunderstand what the Arminian believes. I just see that they are inconsistent in this. Again, when salvation turns on man's choice and not God's choice, at the end of the day it is your choice, belief, response, whatever that makes salvation happen for you. The only "sine qua non" in salvation is man's part.

Why do Calvinists refuse to hear what we're saying? Why do you think we believe the only "sine qua non" is man's part? We believe only that man's part is yet another sine qua non (necessary, but not sufficient), and further that it is not because of any inate ability in man, but an ability God gives us -- it's just that He gives it to all (in varying measure).

[Guest]

Hi Darin,

No I don't misunderstand what the Arminian believes. I just see that they are inconsistent in this. Again, when salvation turns on man's choice and not God's choice, at the end of the day it is your choice, belief, response, whatever that makes salvation happen for you. The only "sine qua non" in salvation is man's part.

Why do Calvinists refuse to hear what we're saying? Why do you think we believe the only "sine qua non" is man's part? We believe only that man's part is yet another sine qua non (necessary, but not sufficient), and further that it is not because of any inate ability in man, but an ability God gives us -- it's just that He gives it to all (in varying measure).

Hi Darin,

By "only sine qua non", I meant that which distinguishes salvation from non-salvation. I'll retract the "only sine qua non" claim; it's the wrong terminology.

The point I'm trying to highlight is that the only thing that separates the saved person in heaven from the lost person in hell is that person's action/belief/response/acceptance/however-you-want-to-phrase-it.

God's (salvific) love is universal and undifferentiated, so it can't be that God loves the saved person more.

God's (prevenient) grace is universal and undifferentiated, so it can't be that God gives grace to the saved person that he doesn't give to the lost person ("in varying measure?" what does that mean?).

Christ's atonement is universal and undifferentiated, so it can't be that the Atonement does something for the saved person that it doesn't do for the lost person.

Cheers,
Bob