Can God know the Future?
Re: Can God know the Future?
good one darin! i lost track of Lost a couple of seasons ago but i get what you are saying.
TK
TK
- darinhouston
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Re: Can God know the Future?
It's almost completely taken this season by questions such as whether someone in the past can actually change their future (and the like).TK wrote:good one darin! i lost track of Lost a couple of seasons ago but i get what you are saying.
TK
Re: Can God know the Future?
Ahhh, but He is! He is a perfect predictor because He knows all the facts. That's what I mean by "perfect predictor". I DO NOT MEAN "a predictor whose predictions always come true". That would not be a "predictor" at all, but would be one with a knowledge of the future (which I have already shown to be impossible). We, unlike God, are not perfect predictors because we don't know all the facts.Well, that's just it. If your view is correct, God is actually NOT a PERFECT predictor.
God doesn't guess. Why do you refer to predicting as "guessing"? If you toss a die, I might guess that "six" will turn up. But when a weather bureau predicts the weather they are not guessing (though sometimes it seem like itIf He sometimes guesses wrong, there is then room for improvement. So obviously God hasn't reached perfection yet!

Keep thinking! By rereading the argument, and thinking, you will follow. I think TK has begun to understand.About your raising your hand - either I have a really bad case of deja-vu, or we have discussed this before - and I still have a problem following that logic.
Your last statement contradicts the initial assumption that it was known that I will raise my hand in 15 minutes. Hence a contradiction!How about we change your wording a little bit:
If we assume that future choices can be known, are we faced with a contradiction?
1. If it is known that I will raise my hand in 15 minutes, then I will not refrain from raising my hand at that time. For if I do refrain from raising my hand in 15 minutes, then it was not known that I will raise it! (naturally. in that case it would have been known that you will NOT raise it).
Contradiction again!2. If it is known that I will not raise my hand in 15 minutes, then I would not raise my hand at that time. For if I do raise my hand in 15 minutes, then it would have been known that I will not refrain from raising it!
#7 is a contradiction. You are working backwards in time. It's like saying that if I perform a certain action, I can change the past.3. Either I will raise my hand in 15 minutes or I will not raise it in 15 minutes.
4. Therefore either I will not refrain form raising my hand in 15 minutes or I will not raise my hand in 15 minutes.
5. In either case there is something I will not do.
6. I have the power of choice to either raise my hand in 15 minutes or refrain from raising it at that time.
7. Whichever choice I make, will be the one that God will know about. But it's still my choice.
We must begin with God's past knowledge if He has it.
But we don't have to bring God into this at all. The argument still holds true without talking about foreknowledge at all. If it is simply TRUE now that I will raise my hand in 15 minutes, then I cannot refrain from raising my hand in 15 minutes ---- and the same for the converse.
So It is neither true nor false that I will raise my hand in 15 minutes. This statement will become true or false only after I make the decision in 15 minutes.
Backwards causation again. If you choose the apple, you cause God to have known that you chose the apple. But when you consider the time sequence, then you would see that if God knew you would choose the banana, then you could not have chosen the apple.- I have a choice between an apple and a banana. I choose banana.
- God knew the choice I would make, and let's say He told this to my son yesterday for some reason.
- Today, it's not that I CANNOT choose the apple, it's that I DID NOT. Because God knew I would choose a banana, that's what He told my son.
- IT WAS MY CHOICE. If Ichoose the apple, God would have known that, and told my son.
It is still my choice.
Well, I'm glad that you can be psychologically comfortable with the idea that statements about the future have present truth value. For me, the inherent contradiction is insurmountable and defies logic itself.It seems a perfectly simple concept to me, and not contradictory at all.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Can God know the Future?
If the future doesn't exist, prayer seems to make a lot of sense. James said, "you have not because you ask not." The question that comes to mind is: Does prayer change things? If it does, does the future actually exist?
Re: Can God know the Future?
I can see why you think my statements are contradictory; I did say I mangled yours up!Paidion wrote:Keep thinking! By rereading the argument, and thinking, you will follow. I think TK has begun to understand.
Well, I'm glad that you can be psychologically comfortable with the idea that statements about the future have present truth value. For me, the inherent contradiction is insurmountable and defies logic itself.
I think I can sort of understand how you arrive at your conclusions; what I don't believe is that our concept of logic is exactly the same as God's - or at least that we may not have all the components available to God to put into the equation. Perhaps our understanding may be necessarily limited in this present age.
It's an interesting discussion (good to hear others' thoughts too) but for now, for me, I might need to put this into the too-hard basket.
Psalms 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. (KJV)
Suzana
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
Re: Can God know the Future?
Before anyone gets the chance to correct me, let me say that I was wrong in suggesting that there is causation involved here, either forwards or backwards. Please ignore my statements to that effect. I was caught up in the way I felt.
Nevertheless, it is still the case that if a sentence is NOW true that person P will freely do action A at a future time T, then P cannot do otherwise at time T. The same thing if the sentence is NOW false. So if sentences about the future are neither true nor false, then they cannot be known in advance. For only that which is true or false can be known. If a sentence is neither true nor false, there is nothing to know.
Nevertheless, it is still the case that if a sentence is NOW true that person P will freely do action A at a future time T, then P cannot do otherwise at time T. The same thing if the sentence is NOW false. So if sentences about the future are neither true nor false, then they cannot be known in advance. For only that which is true or false can be known. If a sentence is neither true nor false, there is nothing to know.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Can God know the Future?
I think your statement is neither true nor false but yet I know you said it.Paidion wrote:Before anyone gets the chance to correct me, let me say that I was wrong in suggesting that there is causation involved here, either forwards or backwards. Please ignore my statements to that effect. I was caught up in the way I felt.
Nevertheless, it is still the case that if a sentence is NOW true that person P will freely do action A at a future time T, then P cannot do otherwise at time T. The same thing if the sentence is NOW false. So if sentences about the future are neither true nor false, then they cannot be known in advance. For only that which is true or false can be known. If a sentence is neither true nor false, there is nothing to know.
Re: Can God know the Future?
If I made a statement, then it is either true or false, for all statements are either true or false.Allyn wrote:I think your statement is neither true nor false but yet I know you said it.
Sentences about the future are neither true nor false; thus they are not statements. I call them "metastatements" since they are in the form of statements, but are not statements at all.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Can God know the Future?
oh man, this one little sentence is in danger of turning me into an open theistPaidion wrote:This is not a question of God's omniscience. Open theists believe that God knows all things.
This is a question about reality. Does the future exist NOW? No, it doesn't. So there's nothing to know.

Re: Can God know the Future?
Paidion,
Can a statement about something that is predicted will occur next week have "false value" today?
You wrote:
God bless, your baptized brother, Homer
Can a statement about something that is predicted will occur next week have "false value" today?
You wrote:
And you contradict yourself here, for an assertion is a statement regardless of whether it is factual or not. Kind of reminds me about your dissertations on the meaning of aionios:If I made a statement, then it is either true or false, for all statements are either true or false.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

God bless, your baptized brother, Homer
