Open Theism, aka, Openness Theology/ Flexible Sovereignty

[steve7150]

Because I believe that no one has freewill, we are influence by something, be it where we are born, genetics, what our parents, teachers, friends taught us and etc. If you do not think this is a true statement, imagine yourself born female in a Muslim country where most are illiterate, and males dominate. What chance does this person have to go to college, learn about Jesus and etc.
Peace, George






I agree that we only have some degree of limited freewill or however you wish to phrase it but what if after this life , perhaps in the lake of fire Jesus appears to all unbelievers and reveals everything.
Do you think some people would still reject him and if they would why not honor their wishes?

[George]

Steve,
I believe that as our sin is revealed and stripped away in this life (elect)and the next (those not chosen for salvation in the previous age), we now or will desire to know Christ, because the Holy Spirit is efficacious.
George

[steve7150]

Steve,
I believe that as our sin is revealed and stripped away in this life (elect)and the next (those not chosen for salvation in the previous age), we now or will desire to know Christ, because the Holy Spirit is efficacious.





George, Thanks for your reply but you really did'nt answer the question unless i misunderstand. If folks had freewill after this life and Jesus revealed everything to them, do you think any would reject Jesus on their own freewill? If any would, should God overcome their freewill and transform them for their own good?

[Sean]

Because I believe that no one has freewill, we are influence by something, be it where we are born, genetics, what our parents, teachers, friends taught us and etc. If you do not think this is a true statement, imagine yourself born female in a Muslim country where most are illiterate, and males dominate. What chance does this person have to go to college, learn about Jesus and etc.
Peace, George

I guess it depends on how you define "free will". What about the person who is born in the US and raised in a Christian home end up leaving the faith. Did these people not exercise freedom of choice? They were influenced by various parties and made a decision. Some of these people actually do suffer for their choice, but make them anyway.

[darinhouston]

We're drifting off topic here, but I'm curious how a Calvinist sees the King's retraction of the debt forgiveness in Matthew 18:21-35.

[George]

Steve,
I believe that as our sin is revealed and stripped away in this life (elect)and the next (those not chosen for salvation in the previous age), we now or will desire to know Christ, because the Holy Spirit is efficacious.





George, Thanks for your reply but you really did'nt answer the question unless i misunderstand. If folks had freewill after this life and Jesus revealed everything to them, do you think any would reject Jesus on their own freewill? If any would, should God overcome their freewill and transform them for their own good?

Sorry, if I misunderstood your question, but what I was trying to say, is that the Holy Spirit begins taking away that which is not of God, through our everyday experiences for those who believe and hopefully by the time our life on earth is over,we are more sanctified then when we first believed. Yet, even for the elect in every age, there is still more that needs to be burned away (1 Corinthians 3:11-15), at the end of our journey on earth. This process while on earth is God working out His purposes in us (Eph2:10, Phil. 2:10), which is totally a God thing and though it may seem like the choices we are making of a spiritual nature is our freewill, it is God. In the next realm, as that which is not of God is stripped away from those in the "Lake of Fire" (Divine purification), the unbelievers heart begins to change and desire that which is Holy, but this is not done by freewill, but by God causing the unbeliever to beable to see clearly wthout the trappings of sin. For us who already believed in the age before, we will finally be glorified and made whole, totally without sin.
God does not "overcome their freewill", because their will is not free; until He takes away those forces,untruths and desires that are not of Him. The end result, a heart for Him.
George

[George]

We're drifting off topic here, but I'm curious how a Calvinist sees the King's retraction of the debt forgiveness in Matthew 18:21-35.

When I read the whole chapter, I see Jesus in the position of a Prophet and warning His audience of impending judgment (verses 8 and 9) by telling them if they do not “become converted and become like children” they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven and instead enter a place called Gehenna. For the Jew and especially the Pharisee, the word Gehenna was very familiar, since it comes from a transliteration of the Valley of Hinnom spoken of in the Old Testament as a actual place of judgment upon Israel by the Babylonians whom Jeremiah prophesied about (Jer.7:32, see also Josh. 15:8, 18:16, 2 Kings 23:10 and the Valley of Hinnom where children were sacrificed to the God of Molech). They also were quite familiar with the passages of 2Chron. 28:3 and 2Chron. 33:6 and the word “Topheth” a literal place of burning that Jeremiah also spoke about (Jer. 19:6). Now Jesus takes up the mantle and proclaims this literal place outside the walls of Jerusalem will be where the fires of judgment will come upon Israel once again (and this does happen with the invasion of the Romans in 70 A.D.). Then there is a bit of an interlude (verses 11-20) where Jesus speaks of His and the Father love for the lost and that the Father desires not one of these little ones to perish. Then a bit of Church discipline on how to deal with a brother who sins and then Peter asks about how many times one should forgive a person who sins against him. It is at this point I think that Jesus goes back to those same religious leaders who cannot see how much God has had compassion for them, yet they turn and show pure lack of forgiveness and compassion for those they have charge of (the common folk) who owes far less to them compared to what they owe the King (God). Then the parable ends with remedial punishment being put upon them until their debt be paid. Of course this debt has been paid through Christ, but we all go through fire of some sort, before the Savior can be recognized, some more fire than others, because we do reap what we sow.
George

[George]

Because I believe that no one has freewill, we are influence by something, be it where we are born, genetics, what our parents, teachers, friends taught us and etc. If you do not think this is a true statement, imagine yourself born female in a Muslim country where most are illiterate, and males dominate. What chance does this person have to go to college, learn about Jesus and etc.
Peace, George

I guess it depends on how you define "free will". What about the person who is born in the US and raised in a Christian home end up leaving the faith. Did these people not exercise freedom of choice? They were influenced by various parties and made a decision. Some of these people actually do suffer for their choice, but make them anyway.

A Calvinist would answer that the person never was ofthe true faith or he or she would still be with true believers (1John 2:19). Whatever infuence these parents had, means nothing if God does not open ones eyes. Yet, usually it is through these types of stimuli that are the instrument God will use. Also, who is to say what time will bring to this individual in the area of the spiritual, that may bring him back into the truth, through prayer, experiences, teachers and the HOLY SPIRIT who brought the Prodigal back to his Father.
George

[RickC]

All --

Please accept my apologies for not getting back to the thread (for a while now).
I can see it has branched out in various directions.

I may start a new thread and reply to those who replied to me (earlier).
Just to get things re-organized, etc.
(Sorry about that)....

Take care, thanks!