Faith is "trust" ... not a "work"
I will allow your comments and mine to stand in juxtaposition, and allow every reader to judge the merits of the two cases presented. My case is at rest.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Imo, God takes the initiative toward us before we believe (while we were yet sinners) via the convicting work of the Holy Spirit.
As a non-Calvinist, I do not believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of "synergism" (which is a doctrine about Arminians and a polemic against them). To wit, I do NOT see saving faith as a righteous deed whereby "I worked with God" in order to obtain salvation (though Calvinists could potentially say, "Oh, yes you do!" for the rest of their lives)...I trusted God by believing the truth of the Gospel; the one and only work that saves me is the work of Christ on the cross, his blood shed for my sins. Once again, if Calvinists choose to say "You did a work to save yourself!" I will remind them that I am Rick_C, not Jesus Christ, and have not died for my own sins leave alone for the sins of the whole world. Thanks be to God!
shifting gears some....
We are born again (or regenerated) by the Father through the Holy Spirit -- it is His action or work. Calvinists have different ideas about exactly when this happens, though they all think it happens before having faith. Most Calvinists I've met see it as very proximal to just before they had faith; "perhaps a millisecond's difference" (according to one Calvinist friend of mine).
This brings up the question of: Can non-believers have any level of faith? I think the Bible teaches that as the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and testifies about Jesus, faith can grow in the heart of the unbeliever. Think, Cornelius, though he already had some measure of faith as a God-fearer. "A few men became followers of Paul and believed" (Acts 17:34a). "Then (King) Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think in such a short time you can persuade me to become a Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long -- I pray God that not only you but all that are listening to me may become as I am, except for these chains" (Acts 26:28-29).
The people who followed Paul were "doing something" before they believed and had obtained some measure of faith in God via Paul's message (or they wouldn't have followed him). Each of us "do something" in the process of coming to saving-faith. I seriously read the Bible for the first time in a long time and am quite positive that the Holy Spirit was teaching and showing me about Jesus. If sitting in a chair and reading the Bible is a "work" I did to earn my salvation (bear with me, I speak as a fool); or if Paul's followers "earned" their eternal life by going someplace else with him to talk some more (I speak as if I am out of my mind); I boast in the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for me! Praise God!
Thanks,
Rick
As a non-Calvinist, I do not believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of "synergism" (which is a doctrine about Arminians and a polemic against them). To wit, I do NOT see saving faith as a righteous deed whereby "I worked with God" in order to obtain salvation (though Calvinists could potentially say, "Oh, yes you do!" for the rest of their lives)...I trusted God by believing the truth of the Gospel; the one and only work that saves me is the work of Christ on the cross, his blood shed for my sins. Once again, if Calvinists choose to say "You did a work to save yourself!" I will remind them that I am Rick_C, not Jesus Christ, and have not died for my own sins leave alone for the sins of the whole world. Thanks be to God!
shifting gears some....
We are born again (or regenerated) by the Father through the Holy Spirit -- it is His action or work. Calvinists have different ideas about exactly when this happens, though they all think it happens before having faith. Most Calvinists I've met see it as very proximal to just before they had faith; "perhaps a millisecond's difference" (according to one Calvinist friend of mine).
This brings up the question of: Can non-believers have any level of faith? I think the Bible teaches that as the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and testifies about Jesus, faith can grow in the heart of the unbeliever. Think, Cornelius, though he already had some measure of faith as a God-fearer. "A few men became followers of Paul and believed" (Acts 17:34a). "Then (King) Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think in such a short time you can persuade me to become a Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long -- I pray God that not only you but all that are listening to me may become as I am, except for these chains" (Acts 26:28-29).
The people who followed Paul were "doing something" before they believed and had obtained some measure of faith in God via Paul's message (or they wouldn't have followed him). Each of us "do something" in the process of coming to saving-faith. I seriously read the Bible for the first time in a long time and am quite positive that the Holy Spirit was teaching and showing me about Jesus. If sitting in a chair and reading the Bible is a "work" I did to earn my salvation (bear with me, I speak as a fool); or if Paul's followers "earned" their eternal life by going someplace else with him to talk some more (I speak as if I am out of my mind); I boast in the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for me! Praise God!
Thanks,
Rick
Last edited by _Rich on Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Steve,
I totally agree with what you say in your lectures about knowing all views and discussing or even debating them as long as it remains essentially civil (friendly) and on-topic.
I also agree there is a time to rest your case; when Ad Hominem ("arguing against a person") is presented as formal argumentation, um, that's not formal argumentation....
This forum actually has some of the best interactions I've seen on the web between Calvinists and Non-Calvinists (most of them elsewhere are entirely non-productive and nothing but scripture quoting bashing-sessions...in Paltalk Messenger they literally holler at each other, 24/7)...it's INSANE
I've become re-interested in Calvinism as one of my cousins is one and may be visiting soon (he always wants to debate about it and I don't). Through the friendly interactions on this forum I've come to see some things he and I may be able to discuss and/or debate...in order to understand the Bible, God, and one another, better.
Thanks for the forum, Steve!
In the Lord,
Rick
I totally agree with what you say in your lectures about knowing all views and discussing or even debating them as long as it remains essentially civil (friendly) and on-topic.
I also agree there is a time to rest your case; when Ad Hominem ("arguing against a person") is presented as formal argumentation, um, that's not formal argumentation....
This forum actually has some of the best interactions I've seen on the web between Calvinists and Non-Calvinists (most of them elsewhere are entirely non-productive and nothing but scripture quoting bashing-sessions...in Paltalk Messenger they literally holler at each other, 24/7)...it's INSANE
I've become re-interested in Calvinism as one of my cousins is one and may be visiting soon (he always wants to debate about it and I don't). Through the friendly interactions on this forum I've come to see some things he and I may be able to discuss and/or debate...in order to understand the Bible, God, and one another, better.
Thanks for the forum, Steve!
In the Lord,
Rick
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
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_tartanarmy
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:26 pm
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Are you referring to Steve there Rick, when he said of me, “you are a stranger to the concept of humility".on-topic.
I also agree there is a time to rest your case; when Ad Hominem ("arguing against a person") is presented as formal argumentation, um, that's not formal argumentation....
Just a point of clarification brother.
Mark
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Ad Hominem is the logical fallacy of "arguing against (or according to) the person." Examples would be: "You disagree with my ideas but you are a sinner; Therefore: My ideas are correct" or "I don't approve of the way you pray; Therefore: Your ideas are wrong" or again, "My opponent disagreed with me. But if I can get Rick on my side, this would, therefore, prove I am right" (these are Ad Hominem irrational statements; arguing according to the person).
Persons engaging in formal debate present arguments to the ideas themselves: Point, Counter-point. If participants in a debate become targets of Ad Hominem, they may tolerate it. Or, they may rest their case based on the relative merits of the arguments they presented....
Persons engaging in formal debate present arguments to the ideas themselves: Point, Counter-point. If participants in a debate become targets of Ad Hominem, they may tolerate it. Or, they may rest their case based on the relative merits of the arguments they presented....
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
This is a very interesting point brother. Upon first reading it, it seems to me to be much more biblical than what the term "synergism" implies. I would have considered myself a "synergist" before reading this, but wouldn't you know it, I got that term from Calvinists. I don't think I've heard it articulated just this way.As a non-Calvinist, I do not believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of "synergism" (which is a doctrine about Arminians and a polemic against them). To wit, I do NOT see saving faith as a righteous deed whereby "I worked with God" in order to obtain salvation (though Calvinists could potentially say, "Oh, yes you do!" for the rest of their lives)...I trusted God by believing the truth of the Gospel; the one and only work that saves me is the work of Christ on the cross, his blood shed for my sins. Once again, if Calvinists choose to say "You did a work to save yourself!" I will remind them that I am Rick_C, not Jesus Christ, and have not died for my own sins leave alone for the sins of the whole world. Thanks be to God!
I would be curious to know the words roots. I have only heard Calvinists use the term.
God bless, and thanks for your presense here!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Derek
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
I was hitchiking MANY years ago....( I am female, ok) and, being
raised in a "LIBERAL" home ,I never saw a bible, though tJesus was
dead and attended a catholic church maybe 3x....I only went because
I was promised a doughnut later! The Lord was gracious to lead me
to himself by himself and has led me all these many years...Wow,
I didnt deserve such grace I wasnt even searching for GOD.........Oh, Yes,
he did pick me up that day..Jesus that is!
Now thats amazing grace.....Here I am 33 yrs later
raised in a "LIBERAL" home ,I never saw a bible, though tJesus was
dead and attended a catholic church maybe 3x....I only went because
I was promised a doughnut later! The Lord was gracious to lead me
to himself by himself and has led me all these many years...Wow,
I didnt deserve such grace I wasnt even searching for GOD.........Oh, Yes,
he did pick me up that day..Jesus that is!
Now thats amazing grace.....Here I am 33 yrs later
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
For those who believe the strange idea that faith is a work and something to boast about, something to cause a person to look down on those who are not in Christ, I say that the concept of election as the Calvinists teach it is more likely to engender pride and boasting.
In support of my statement I would ask you to honestly consider the Jews who were God's chosen people, the elect, as it were, for many centuries. To them were given many priveledges and responsibilities, including the oracles of God and a fruitful land. This election of an seemingly insignificant people was purely by grace; they did not deserve it. I would ask you this: can you think of any group of people who boasted more than they? Who looked down on others more than they? Who had a saying that the reason God made gentiles (all people who were not Jews) was as fuel for hell. Sounds a bit like some of the prominent Calvinist preachers!
As far as boasting goes, I have absolutely nothing to boast about other than Jesus and him crucified. I see myself as the man in Luke 18:13, "God be merciful to me a sinner". I have the status of a begger, and you think I might imagine I have something to boast about? At my best moments, I have "only done my duty".
I hope this "boasting" argument will be put to rest. It is silly and rather disgusting.
In support of my statement I would ask you to honestly consider the Jews who were God's chosen people, the elect, as it were, for many centuries. To them were given many priveledges and responsibilities, including the oracles of God and a fruitful land. This election of an seemingly insignificant people was purely by grace; they did not deserve it. I would ask you this: can you think of any group of people who boasted more than they? Who looked down on others more than they? Who had a saying that the reason God made gentiles (all people who were not Jews) was as fuel for hell. Sounds a bit like some of the prominent Calvinist preachers!
As far as boasting goes, I have absolutely nothing to boast about other than Jesus and him crucified. I see myself as the man in Luke 18:13, "God be merciful to me a sinner". I have the status of a begger, and you think I might imagine I have something to boast about? At my best moments, I have "only done my duty".
I hope this "boasting" argument will be put to rest. It is silly and rather disgusting.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean