Big Picture

[Guest]

Hi Bob,

Bob---Rather, God's choice precedes and determines our choice. (Jn. 6:37)

This verse does not speak of God choosing us. Here is a post that I wrote on John 6:37-45,

I have dealt with these verses in another post but I will speak on them here,

John 6:37-45 ( KJV ) 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. Now these verses do no apply to you or I, when Jesus said this, salvation had not yet come to the gentiles, Jesus himself said,

John 4:22 ( KJV ) 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Matthew 10:5-6 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,


John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one today will see the Son. Now Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws Him, this is correct. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, God determined that Christ would die for sins,


Acts 2:23 ( KJV ) 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

For this to happen the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,

Jesus
Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Isaiah
Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Paul
Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul
Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.

Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,

John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast out. Now, Jesus said that it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day, the question is what does He mean by "it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day"? Is this something that must happen or is it what the Father desires to happen? I say that this is what the Father desires to happen but it doesn't have to happen, let's look at it. First the Calvinist would say that those who are drawn to Christ are the elect, those given to Christ are the elect. So let's see who they are, John 17 tells us who they are,

John 17:2 ( KJV ) 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:6-8 ( KJV ) 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

So we see from John 17 that the ones given to Christ by the Father were the disciples, Now Jesus said He should raise them up at the last day. Is that a Guarantee? No,


John 17:12 ( KJV ) 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Now Judas was lost He will not be lifted up at the last day, you can say Judas wasn't saved, but you can't say that Judas wasn't one of those given to Christ by the Father. Judas WAS given to Christ by the Father
so it was the desire of God that all be lifted up but that did not happen.
Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction could take place, after the crucifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel, which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.

Butch

[Guest]

PaulT wrote:

Reformers don’t think Ro 3 is hyperbole. Therefore when man evaluates the evidence of God he will always view the evidence through a self-authenticating, self-sufficient basis and as such will not chose God. The Reformed view states that God allows men to go to Hell while enabling some to recognize their condition which then leads to repentance.

And this is the crux of the matter. The Calvinist posits that this enabling (actually regeneration) must precede their accepting the gospel message. Despite what Paul says:

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

The Calvinist renders the gospel impotent. But it is the Spirit of God, working with the gospel, that converts the sinner. What one does, the other is said to do. Jesus is the "Living Word". The gospel is the word. They are all closely related.

Calvinist, can you show that any one person was ever regenerated where the gospel has not gone?

[_darin-houston]

Calvinist, can you show that any one person was ever regenerated where the gospel has not gone?

I hate to speak for them, but I think they would believe receipt of the gospel is necessary, but would say that God's eternal decree would ensure that the elect will receive the gospel and accept it. Therefore, none in the "jungle" can possibly be elect (and presumably all infants and unborn?). They have enough natural revelation to condemn themselves, but not enough to save them. Somehow, it still glorifies God even though these people will never be seen in contrast with the church in the world.

[_darin-houston]

I still don't understand how it wouldn't glorify God even more to have a system where His people who actually had a choice turned to Him. If I lock my loved one in the basement, how much glory to I receive by their staying with me? If I love them, set them free.... (sorry, Sting). If they come back to me, what awesome glory I receive.

[Guest]

This is consistent with what I indicated and demonstrates the misrepresentation to which I alluded. God has decreed those that are rebellious to him are punished, so what?

Based on my understanding, the position you represent here is the Arminian one -- that God decrees the mechanics, but not the individuals. I am pretty certain that Calvin and the rest believe that the very individuals were decreed and created for the very purpose of reprobation and punishment, which they would say glorifies God.

There are modern Reformed who would not agree publicly with this, but it strikes me they have an inconsistent position if they truly believe it.

It may be that I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make -- I'll try to go back and listen to Dr. White's treatment, but am I missing something obvious?

I’m not sure as I’ve reviewed the issue it boils down to the who and what of God and the who and what of man. Man is always and ever will be a created being not self-derived. No, I don’t think I’ve presented the Arminiman view, because the Arminiman from what I understand presupposes man has a neutral position before God therefore capable of making at decision for God without God’s intervention. Here is the Reformed Baptist Convention of Faith from 1689, the same convention Spurgeon confessed. Methinks you are operating on a caricature of the viewpoint.

Chapter 9: Of Free Will
1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )
3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )
4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )
5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

PaulT

[Guest]

PaulT wrote:

Reformers don’t think Ro 3 is hyperbole. Therefore when man evaluates the evidence of God he will always view the evidence through a self-authenticating, self-sufficient basis and as such will not chose God. The Reformed view states that God allows men to go to Hell while enabling some to recognize their condition which then leads to repentance.

And this is the crux of the matter. The Calvinist posits that this enabling (actually regeneration) must precede their accepting the gospel message. Despite what Paul says:

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

The Calvinist renders the gospel impotent. But it is the Spirit of God, working with the gospel, that converts the sinner. What one does, the other is said to do. Jesus is the "Living Word". The gospel is the word. They are all closely related.

Calvinist, can you show that any one person was ever regenerated where the gospel has not gone?

I notice you didn’t address your red herring. The Gospel can only be heard by ears that hear, no? “Impotent”, did not Christ say that they didn’t hear him? Were Christ’s words impotent? Do you think he was suggesting they were deaf? Truly it is the Spirit of God that removes the bias from the depraved man’s mind enabling him to understand. Why would a Calvinist need show, “Calvinist, can you show that any one person was ever regenerated where the gospel has not gone?”? Evidently you presuppose the Calvinist suggests God uses a different method of spreading his word than what is prescribed in Scripture. Arminian, can you show why a fully functioning rational individual would over-ride the clear evidence for God denying Him forever casting his soul into eternal damnation? Why would Richard Dawkins a clear thinking man when after evaluating the evidence within the cosmos and understanding the precision the cosmos was made in write the book the “Blind Watchmaker” recognizing the precision he sees as a scientist could only be explained by a designer yet still denying the designer? Would you consider this a rational decision? Perhaps he didn’t get enough evidence, eh?

PaulT

[Guest]

I still don't understand how it wouldn't glorify God even more to have a system where His people who actually had a choice turned to Him. If I lock my loved one in the basement, how much glory to I receive by their staying with me? If I love them, set them free.... (sorry, Sting). If they come back to me, what awesome glory I receive.

What makes you think this is the reformed viewpoint?

PaulT

[_darin-houston]

I still don't understand how it wouldn't glorify God even more to have a system where His people who actually had a choice turned to Him. If I lock my loved one in the basement, how much glory to I receive by their staying with me? If I love them, set them free.... (sorry, Sting). If they come back to me, what awesome glory I receive.

What makes you think this is the reformed viewpoint?

PaulT

You have a valid point -- it's a bit of a caricature, I guess, but I was just showing the contrast between the views. It's not a terribly unfair characterization, I don't think, since that's sort of the way I see irresistable grace. It's still compelled love, it seems, rather than love freely given. If people in their natural state can't love God, and God does something they can't resist that causes them or enables them irresistably to love Him, then how is that materially different to my example?

[Guest]

Is God's likeness and image likely to be the way you described it? Was Adam punished because he acted according to his nature, a nature that is in God's image and likeness? Or was it because Adam did something contrary to his nature/image/likeness?

Do you hold a view of Adam that says the fall affected Adams children or do you hold a view of Adam that says his nature was always to love sin and hate God.

Hi Sean,

I hold to what I think is the orthodox view, that Adam was created with the ability to sin, and that when he did so, he fell, and the fall brought the curse of sin, that is death on him and all his posterity, including us.

Although Adam was created in the image and likeness of God, that does not imply that all of God's attributes were fully present in Adam.

I stand by my original statement and think the scriptures fully support the idea that the universal condition of mankind after the fall is one of rebellion toward God.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Here is a section of the Westminster Catechism,

3:3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (Matt 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death (Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22, 23; Eph 1:5, 6).

3:4 These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished (John 13:18; 2 Tim 2:19).

The reformed position does indeed say that some men were fore ordain to eternal destruction, not because of the fall, but because God ordained it. This is one of the things that made me leave Calvinism.

Butch.

The confession doesn’t say, “He has predetermined they will not and are to be eternally damned.”, nor does it say, “the One commanding repentance simultaneously will not allow most to repent” God decreed man would be made in a certain way, he decreed they would have a nature, IOW he didn’t decree they would be incapable of sin. Having the capability to sin and then acting on it is fundamentally different than predetermining man to sin. True God fore-ordained those that rebel will go to eternal damnation, but He didn’t fore-ordain them to rebel, He just fore-ordained for them to have the capacity to rebel. Also allowing one to act within his nature is not disallowing repentance, the point is man in his un-natural state, separated from God and in a state of sin doesn’t want to repent, God just doesn’t step into to change what it is they will to do.

This is born out in section 6 of the confession,
Chapter VI
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

Do you see in paragraph 1 where God “permitted” man to sin? If the folks who had written what you posted intended it to mean that man was programmed to sin they would not have then used the term “permitted” here. What they meant and what is born out if you read the stuff in context is that God allowed, "permitted" man to act within the nature he was created.

As I stated Homer’s charge is a misrepresentation of the position and has several logical fallacies regarding the who and what of God, the who and what of man along with the act of creation and what God will’s to do.

PaulT