Calvin's position on Adam's will, was Adam programmed to sin

[Guest]

Bob (off-topic),

Just curious...what's the deal with the dude in the devil suit making the peace sign?

Rick,

That's me, the evil Calvinist!

[Guest]

Bob,

Not to debate it or anything but....
Suggest: an angel or "not a bad guy"....
(at least with their eyes open),
Anyways, thanks for the reply.

[Guest]

Bob,

Not to debate it or anything but....
Suggest: an angel or "not a bad guy"....
(at least with their eyes open),
Anyways, thanks for the reply.

Never! Come to the dark side, Dilbert!

[Guest]

Perhaps you should study Calvin’s institutes, according to Calvin man today have the same will Adam was created with, Calvin’s point is that man today follows the desires of his heart. IOW God doesn’t make man wicked, according to Calvin man wants to be wicked. Which if this is the “distinction” you are attempting to draw in explanation of Gregg’s misrepresentation, you are still left with a misrepresentation because there is a difference from God “makes” to man “desires”.

...I provided Calvin’s quote in which he claims Adam was made with a free choice and a bias toward God. Calvin’s position post fall is that man due to Adam’s fall is born with sin, again, this isn’t God making them wicked, the wickedness is passed on from Adam who was made without sin.

God doesn't make man wicked? Who made man? If God made Adam good, with a "free choice" and a "bias toward God" then how was Adam able to change himself into a rebel? Can a leapord change it's spots? Can the clay mold itself after the Potter has molded it? Did Adam make himself a sinner and thereby cause all in "his" image to have dead hearts unable to be biased toward God? How does one of God's creation have such power, apart from God?

Calvin’s position is that pre-fall man was neutral with a bias toward God having the ability to follow either course, post fall man entirely wants’ to follow his desires and has no wish to follow God. In neither case it is not close to accurate to represent Calvin with a position that, “God makes man wicked”.

This is interesting and brings up a very important point. When I was speaking to Bob (and reading his response to Paidion) he said that if God foreknew something it must be a "true" condition. If it does not come to pass then God "would have held a false belief" and this cannot be the case. So whatever God knows or foreknows must be true and come to pass as long as some form of determinism is true.

My question is: Did God know in adance that Adam would fall?

If yes, then how can it be asserted that Adam was made "neutral with a bias toward God" and "having the ability to follow either course"? If Adam could only make one choice (the one God foreknew), then how can it be said he could have made another choice? Or that he chose to fall freely of his own will.

[Guest]

Hi all,
Im new to this forum. I'll intorduce myself and them make my reply.
This is my first post and i'm happy to have found this forum. A friend from Tweb turned me to the SG vs JW calvinism debate in mp3 and I loved it; Great stuff. Im a Universal reconciliationist, so I hold to both Arm and Monergism. I was primarily influenced from Thomas Talbotts work but I am happy to discuss and disagree with people without feeling resentment. I only ask that people be fair and courteous with me as well.

My feelings on Johns (calvin) work is it's simply contradictory to claim Adam fell by his own choice and that God decreed it would happen (even predestining). The two things can no more exist than a married bachelor can exist. So making claims of doctrinal positions is easy.

Recently I watched a so called apostle of the mormon church explain their view of the trinity (as being wrong) but denied being polytheists.
It is simple to claim such notions but to argue them logically is another story. Unfortunatley I feel the calvinist are in a similar boat.

To claim that God made the man and predestined him to failure but blames the man for the failure (by his own choice) begs the question of who caused the choice. Justice is the deeper issue at question and calvinists simply rely on a mystery tactic that we cannot fathom justice.

As for the two wills. I don't think that truly matters much. God does as he pleases whether it be 1, 2, 15 or 240 wills. The fact is that GOD IS LOVE and that is something he does not break from his nature. For just s God is just ALL THE TIME for it's his nature, so God is LOVE all the time it is his nature. Thus to concede that God loved the reprobate to totrue forever is no more meaninful than a mormon claiming "there are more than 1 god but we're not polytheists".

I truly beleieve God's love is demonstrated through scripture and IT IS ALL ABOUT JESUS. This is his grace that he sent his grace to us to save us.

With respect,
Auggy