the elect few?

[Guest]

Hello to everyone here:

I first apologize if what I am to ask has already been answered some where on this site. Also because I do not have the memory as many of you do to refer to scripture etc. I do not add alot of times actual scripture that I have read. I have M.S. It has erroded parts of my brain where my memory lies to recall words exactly.

Instead I have found the Lord in His mercy seems to write scripture on my heart so I can follow or ask questions that apply to His word without acutally being able to pull it up, if I am faithful and read the word..So I tend to speak more from the heart.

I also do not mean to be chatting when I ask questions like this. I hope you all can understand this of me to some extent.

I may at times also thank you personally for your online help, because it is just that....Help and I appreciate it "

. Here is my question:

I have a friend at church whos whole family are Calvinists. She is not. She shared with me how here husband is very depressed about what he believes her family tells him regarding His salvation. She told me they have told him there are only an elect few that actually are to go to eternal life with Christ.

He has been out of work for a long time and turned away from Christianity also because of this. Even though they have truely been held up in Gods grace with monies they need coming in etc. He does not see it as that. He sees it as his wife is one of the elect few ( she is a very devoted Chrisirtan woman) and he doesn't contribute to any of it because he is not of the elect.

That blew my mind and I found it so sad. Is this true of the Calvanists beliefs?Where do they get it from? And I know this is a simple scripture,


but in Luke 2:10. the angel said to them"Do not be afraid,I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL people."

Didn't the angel say that the Christ was for everyone?

Thanks for your help in advance. Glow

[Guest]

Gee I just got done reading the post right before mine on atonement. Are you answering basically the question I have here, there?

I am sorry if you are, it is so wordy I can't make sense of it very well ( no offense). Is there anyone out there that could explain what they beleive and why in simple terms? Thanks Glow

[Guest]

I would have your friend read this: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/nowhim.html !!! From my understanding, it shows how the belief of most denominations are in fact, not calvinism. So, maybe he could realize that he has not rejected Christianity per se, but certain views from those who may or may not be true believers. Many christians reject them too. Also, see if you can get them to come and discuss their views, and if they are willing to allow their views to be challenged, to see if they in fact, hold up to the Scriptures.

[Guest]

thanks I quess what I am hoping for here is to understand if the Calvinist do believe there are only a select few, where do they glean that from scripture?

Her husband has no interest in reading anything. He is sold out at this point that he is not of the select few but his wife is.

She stands alone as her family are all Calvinists and support him. I wanted to understand it to just "understand it" and also know how to pray for them. Thanks for your input though. Glow

[Guest]

Glow,

At least a couple places in scripture the Calvinists get their ideas from regarding election, or God choosing only certain individuals for salvation, are Romans chapter 9 and Ephesians chapter 1. They like to apply these scriptures to individuals but I see them as primarily discussing groups of people, Israel and the gentiles or the Church and the lost. I believe these passages teach that those who are predestined, elect, chosen are those who are in the Church (Christ's body), for He is the Chosen One. Notice in Ephesians 1:4 "Just as He chose us in Him...". We are the elect, or chosen, only because we are in Him.

We in the western world are strongly individualistic in our orientation while those of the biblical lands were and are much more group oriented in their thinking.

True Calvinists believe that those who perservere in the faith will be saved and good works will be the evidence. The Arminians (I suppose I am classed as one although I don't know much about the fellow!) also agree that good works are evidence of salvation. However Calvinists believe God choses to regenerate certain people before they believe, they have no free will or ability to believe until regenerated because they are "dead".

In support of this a Calvinist quoted to me Romans 3:10-12, in particular where it says "There is no one who does good, no, not one." What he neglected to note was that the tense in the Greek indicates an ongoing practice of doing good and does not say an unregenerate person can not do a good thing such as making a choice to follow Jesus.

Your story about you friend and her husband is a sad one indeed. The church we attend is part of the "Restoration Movement" which began when several men who were Calvinists came to believe Calvinism to be wrong and left the Churches they had grown up in. The practice of the Calvinists was to teach that you could not know you were a Christian unless you had a conversion experience. This was the purpose of the "mourner's bench" where people sought for and were berated for not having an experience; told they were at fault. Much harm was done, many went away disappointed, believing themselves to be not of "the elect", and gave up in despair. Sounds like your friend's husband. Those involved in the beginning of the "Restoration Movement" rebelled against this teaching and began to preach that people could repent, accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and be baptized and trust that God would forgive their sins as they believed He had promised as in Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost.

I hope you can help your friends; I will pray for all of you!

God bless, Homer

[Guest]

thankyou Homer

That was just what I needed. Thank God for the restoration movement! and thankyou for your prayers

Glow

[Guest]

Hi Glow,

If I understand Calvinism correctly, from their perspective, nobody can know whether or not they are elect until the second they die. That's their version of Perseverance as I understand it. So for your friends' husband to claim that he is not one of the elect seems a rather absurd cop out to me.

I'm not a Calvinist, but from their standpoint, he cannot know that God won't regenerate him tomorrow, 10 years from now, or never. So how can he say assuredly that he is not one of the elect? Does he want to be? If not, why is he depressed? From a Calvinist standpoint, he sees himself as dead and dead men can feel neither depression about their salvation nor a desire to even be saved.

If what you have described is true, it sounds like this man has something else going on other than being a victim of a fatalistic doctrine.

I will also pray for this family.

Lord bless.

[Guest]

I hope I am not representing him falsly. I was just trying to understand why her family followed this belief. I didn't understand it. His wife shared this with me and about her families beliefs. There could also be alot more going on and I don't mean to say he is just a victum of false doctrine. Glow

[Guest]

Hi Glow,

If I understand Calvinism correctly, from their perspective, nobody can know whether or not they are elect until the second they die. That's their version of Perseverance as I understand it.

Most of the Calvinists would say you can know that you are one of the elect if you love God, because Calvinists say that the only way that you would love God is if God changed your heart and gave you faith, so that you were justified.

Calvinists recognize that those that are Justified are the same as the Predestinated and the Glorified.

-Turretinfan

[Guest]

Hi Glow,

If I understand Calvinism correctly, from their perspective, nobody can know whether or not they are elect until the second they die. That's their version of Perseverance as I understand it.

Most of the Calvinists would say you can know that you are one of the elect if you love God, because Calvinists say that the only way that you would love God is if God changed your heart and gave you faith, so that you were justified.

Calvinists recognize that those that are Justified are the same as the Predestinated and the Glorified.

-Turretinfan

And what about those who love God for awhile, then fall away? All the Calvinists I have heard say this is evidence that they were never saved. So all that love they had while they "thought" they were saved was no assurance at all. Which brings up the important question: How does a Calvinist know if he loves God for real, or is just deceived? This seems to give the default position that loving God may or may not be "real", it's too subjective to be used as proof of assurance of salvation. So perserverence to the end is all they can really use as proof of assurance.

Unless one can loose their salvation.