The Narrow Path Ministries

The following is by Evangelion's brother, who goes by Fortigurn. His take on this was so good (IMO), that I thought that would post it here:

In Romans 9 Paul doesn't say God has predestinated anything other than deciding beforehand a fitting destiny for those who are the true seed of Abraham - and Paul's point is that God chose the spiritual seed, not the natural seed:

Romans 9:
6...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That's the only thing God has predetermined in Romans 9, that it would be the spiritual seed of Abraham who would receive the promise, not the natural seed. That's why it looks so unfair.

Paul goes on to demonstrate that this was first shown in God's choice of Isaac as the promised seed - even though Isaac was not the firstborn:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Having established this, Paul goes on to show that this principle was continued with Esau and Jacob - pointing out that yet again the natural order was usurped by God, and Jacob received the birthright, even though it should have gone to Esau:

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

So that's Paul's argument - God has decided that it would be the spiritual seed who would bear the promises, not the natural seed. God has usurped the natural order, and the two archetypal examples of this are His choice of Isaac over Ishmael, and Jacob over Esau

Paul then anticipates his reader's next question, which will naturally be 'How is that fair?':

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

No, says Paul, this isn't 'unfair', and he goes on to show why:

15For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God chose whomsoever He would. It wasn't through any merit of Isaac that he was chosen over Ishmael, nor was it through any merit of Jacob's that he was chosen over Esau.

As Paul has shown, both of these men were chosen by God even before they were born.

Calvin reached this point and decided that this was what he would later call 'unconditional election', that individuals are predestined to salvation or destruction by God, prior to their existence, and regardless of their actions in life. But Paul's entire argument hasn't been to do with the salvation of individuals.

What has Paul's argument been thus far?

- The context of his entire argument is his explanation to the Jews why it is that the Gentiles have been chosen for salvation by God, as well as the Jews (verses 3-6)

- For this reason it has been necessary to point out that God chose the spiritual seed of Abraham as the bearers of the promise rather than the natural seed (verses 7-8 )

- The choice of the spiritual seed (the seed of the promise), is exemplified in the choice of Isaac over Ishmael, and Jacob over Esau, both instances in which the natural seed was supplanted by the Divine choice (verses 9-13)

Paul's argument then continues - and in the negative now, in contrast to the positive:

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will he hardeneth.

Just as God has chosen to use the spiritual seed to bear the promises which display His graciousness (showing them favour), so He may also choose to use certain evil men to bear the judgments which display His power (showing them disfavour).

As to which evil men God chooses to do so, says Paul, that is also His prerogative - and Scripture shows that God uses those evil men who are most convenient to His purpose.

At this point Paul anticipates - and answers - another objection:

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

Ok, Paul says, so some of you will say 'Wait a minute, if God is using these bad people like Pharoah to further His glory , then how can He find fault with them? They're doing just what He expected, and just what He wants, surely?'

This is Calvinism, and Paul is correct in refuting it:

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Sorry, says Paul, God's personal choice of using certain individuals for His purposes has nothing to do with you - and you can't use it to excuse your wrongdoing.

In fact, Paul's argument has been that Pharoah was a particularly useful individual to God because of his wrongdoings - there's nothing like man challenging God's authority to show who's really in charge, but Pharoah's challenge was Pharoah's choice.

But what does Paul mean when he speaks of the potter having power over the clay, one vessel made to honour, the other to dishonour? Isn't he saying that God made some people bad and He made some people good?

Isn't it saying that He has chosen some individuals for glorification, and chosen some individuals for destruction, unconditionally and before they were even born?

Well no, it isn't. Paul still says not a word about anyone's personal salvation, nor about predestination - because neither of these have anything to do with his argument, as we have seen.

In fact, it is those who reply against him who are attempting to use Paul's argument to justify their views on predestination to personal salvation, but Paul is not discussing predestination to personal salvation.

So what is Paul saying? Let's continue to read and see what he says - let's see if he speaks of God making people good or bad, for the purpose of destroying or rewarding them:

22What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,

In fact, he doesn't. Paul's argument is indeed going to use the imagery of a potter's vessels, but not in the manner we might expect. He does not speak of God making people good or bad.

He speaks of enduring with much longsuffering these vessels of wrath, and of making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy.

These vessels are God's business, to do with as He pleases. It is not for anyone to disagree with Him if He chooses to use some to further His glorious end in mercy, and some to express His power in wrath.

But the verses preceding have shown that this is not arbitrary, as classic predestination thinking would have us believe, and the entire context is not individual salvation, but the manner in which God chooses certain individuals to contribute to His purpose.

Let's see the conclusion of Paul's argument, which is a continuation of the same sentence he started in verse 22:

23And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Again, it's obvious to see that Paul's argument is all about demonstrating that the Gentiles have been chosen by God for savlation as well as the Jews - which is why Paul has had to demonstrate that God chose the spiritual seed to bear the promises, rather than the natural seed (which is why he has had to answer so many objections). That this is the entire point of Paul's argument is made utterly clear by the way he concludes it:

25As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28For He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha

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Every one of these verses concerns the bringing in of the Gentiles to salvation, and God's promise to Israel that despite the bringing in of the Gentiles to the covenant, the natural seed would not be cast off.

Not a word about God predetermining the salvation of individuals. Not a word about God 'making' people good. Not a word about God 'making' people bad.

The remainder of the chapter simply speaks of the basis on which the Gentiles enter the new covenant, and the reason why the Jews are blind to it:

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

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The entire argument, the entire chapter, has not been about God predetermining the salvation of some individuals and the damnation of others, it has been about the spiritual seed and the natural seed, about the choices God makes in order to fulfill His purpose, about the bringing in of the Gentiles to the promises of Abraham as the spiritual seed, and about the fact that the natural seed will yet be brought in also.

As we have seen, Paul isn't talking about predestinating individuals to anything - whether salvation or damnation. In fact he doesn't even use the word 'predestination'. Paul's argument is that God does what He wants with what He has - and His choice to use certain men for good or evil is His business, not ours. That's the potter and clay analogy.

"As we have seen, Paul isn't talking about predestinating individuals to anything - whether salvation or damnation. In fact he doesn't even use the word 'predestination'. Paul's argument is that God does what He wants with what He has - and His choice to use certain men for good or evil is His business, not ours. That's the potter and clay analogy."

What are the vessels,if they are not people what are they?

You said that God uses certain men for good or evil but that individuals isn't what Paul is talking about? Please help me I am confused as to your point.

Romans 9

9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Oh, that God would grant me such a heart of compassion. It is hard to grasp wanting to give up Christ so that someone else might be known by Him.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Praise God that His word has not failed. Praises that "in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls"

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "

Praise God that He even raises up enemies (like Pharaoh) "that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Lord, give us a humble and broken heart like Job when we read your word--

42 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “ I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘ Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 ‘ Hear, and I will speak;
 I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.”

24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Can you fathom being Hosea?
2 When the Lord first spoke through Hosea, the Lord said to Hosea, “Go, take to yourself a wife of whoredom and have children of whoredom, for the land commits great whoredom by forsaking the Lord.”

We are all Gomer. We have prostituted ourselves out to sin and idolatry.

3 And the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the Lord loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins.” 2 So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a yhomer and a lethech3 of barley.

Wow! Christ paid infinitely more than 15 shekels to forgive my whoredom!

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Look at this beautiful picture in Revelation that speaks of God's elect saved by grace (I would suggest by sovereign grace).

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”


All glory to God,

Haas