The Narrow Path Ministries

A Calvinist brother on another forum HERE posted the following comment about God's foreknowledge:

...I think that it is sufficient to say that a foreknowledge which precedes creation, makes the creation of the foreknown thing effectively a decree that it shall be as it was foreknown to be. Which is to say that unless we suppose God to be ignorant of who is or shall be "in Christ" then it is unavoidable that He decreed from the foundation of the world(or at the very least from the creation of the people with whom we are concerned) their salvation or damnation. How does creating one with the foreknowledge of his damnation differ from reprobation? If God's love does not prevent Him from creating someone when He has a certain knowledge of their damnation then how does it prevent Him from creating someone with the deliberate intent to damn them? To create with foreknowledge is to create with intent.

I am interested to know how some folks here would answer this. I kind of know how our Open Theists over here would answer this, so I'm mostly interested in the more traditional understanding, but your comments are welcome too.

Thanks!

The topic of this thread is not all that interesting to me at this time in my life, but here is my comment.

I believe God creates people in order to glorify Himself in the fact that there is free will. In free will there is truth and it is truth that glorifies God. If one rejects the free gift of salvation then God is glorified in the truth that the road to destruction is broad and well traveled and all that goes with that. Likewise His truth is revealed in the salvation of people by His Son.

Yes, I believe God knows all and sees all before it happens but it is for His glory alone that all things happen.

Edited by self for I always say the same thing about this stuff, lol

...I think that it is sufficient to say that a foreknowledge which precedes creation, makes the creation of the foreknown thing effectively a decree that it shall be as it was foreknown to be. Which is to say that unless we suppose God to be ignorant of who is or shall be "in Christ" then it is unavoidable that He decreed from the foundation of the world(or at the very least from the creation of the people with whom we are concerned) their salvation or damnation. How does creating one with the foreknowledge of his damnation differ from reprobation? If God's love does not prevent Him from creating someone when He has a certain knowledge of their damnation then how does it prevent Him from creating someone with the deliberate intent to damn them? To create with foreknowledge is to create with intent.

I am interested to know how some folks here would answer this. I kind of know how our Open Theists over here would answer this, so I'm mostly interested in the more traditional understanding, but your comments are welcome too.

If God knew from the beginning of time what every person would choose and when, then everyone must inevitably come do what was foreknown and at the appointed time, and the Calvinists are right.

There is simply no logical way to reconcile God's forknowledge of every choice of man with the concept of libertarian free will of man. Calvinists know this. Arminians don't. The latter try to integrate two conflicting theses.

Of course, if God has such forknowledge, it is not that forknowldege that causes man to act in accordance to it. No one argues for that.

Rather it would be the fact that such forknowledge would imply that statements about man's future choices have truth value before those choices are made.

If at time T, it is true that P will choose R at time T+1, then P cannot refrain from choosing R at time T+1. Thus he is not free to choose not R.

Similarily, if at time T it is false that P will choose R at time T+1, then P cannot choose R at time T+1. Thus he is not free to choose R.

Either way, there is something P is not free to choose. Thus he does not have libertarian free will.

However, if we believe P does have libertarian free will, the we will have to reject the notion that statements about the choices of free will agents have truth value before those choices are made (that is, that they are either true or false). Those choices will become either true or false after they are made.

Finally, if statements about those choices are neither true or false before they are made, then they cannot be known to be true or false before they are made.

Take your choice: 1] People have libertarian freedom and their choices cannnot be known in advance or 2] People do not have libertarian freedom and their choices can be known in advance.

To hold to neither 1] nor 2] but rather to 3] People have libertarian freedom and their choices can be known in advance, is to accept a proposition that is logically self-contradictory.

1 Corinthians 2:1-2
2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.


Revelation 13:8 (King James Version)
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (English Standard Version)
8and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Revelation 13:8 (New American Standard Bible)
8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Revelation 13:8 (American Standard Version)
8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

Revelation 13:8 (New International Version)
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (Amplified Bible)
8And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.


I Peter 1:13-25
13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for
“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”
And this word is the good news that was preached to you.



In Christ,

Haas

Here's one you "forgot" to quote:

Revelation 3:5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

The bolded words seem to imply the possibility that some people's names will be blotted out. If that is the case, then having one's name in the book does not ensure their eternal status.

Also, not having your name blotted out seems to be connected with your "conquering" or "overcoming".

Is it possible that every one's name starts out in the book of life, and is blotted out if they don't accept Christ?

I have always wondered about this. I think I even heard David Jeremiah preach this one time (but it has been a while).

TK

TK,

Do you think this applies? It may not, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read your question. The language here suggests to me "found written" as opposed to, say, "found not blotted out".

Just my two pennies.

Dan 12:1 And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation; until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Edit: there are also several verses in Revelation that suggest "not written". This feels a bit like proof-texting.

Rev 13:8; 17:8; 20:15

Revelation 3:1-6
3:1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

E. The Letter to the Church at Sardis
(3:1-6)
3:1 angel. Messenger or pastor (see note on 1:20). Sardis. Situated on a natural acropolis rising 1,500 feet above the valley floor, the city (modern Sart) was nearly impregnable. Around 1200 B.C. it gained prominence as as the capital of the Lydian kingdom. Its primary industry was harvesting wool, dying it, and making garments from it. The famous author, Aesop, came from Sardis, and tradition says that Melito, a member of the church in Sardis, wrote the first ever commentary on certain passages in the Book of Revelation. The church in Sardis was dead, that is, basically populated by unredeemed, unregenerate people. Seven Spirits. See note on 1:4. seven stars. The pastors of these seven churches (see notes on 1:16, 20).
3:3 come upon you as a thief. Here the reference is not to Christ’s Second Coming (cf. 16:15; I Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10), but to His sudden and unexpected coming to His unrepentant, dead church to inflict harm and destruction. Cf. 2:5.
3:4 who have not defiled their garments. Defiled means to “smear, to pollute, or “to stain,” and garments refers to character. There were a few whose character was still godly (cf. Jude 23). In white. The white garments of all the redeemed (cf. 6:11; 7:9, 13; 19:8, 14), speak of holiness and purity. Such white robes are reserved for Christ (Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:3), holy angels (Matt. 28:3; Mark 16:5), and the glorified church (19:8, 14). In the ancient world, white robes were commonly worn at festivals and celebrations.
3:5 overcomes. All true Christians (see note on 2:7). Book of Life. A divine journal records the names of all those whom God has chosen to save and who, therefore, are to possess eternal life (13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; 21:27; 22:19; cf. Dan. 12:1; Luke 10:20). Under no circumstances will He erase those names (see note on Phil 4:3), as city officials often did of undesirable people on their rolls.
[The MacArthur Bible Commentary pp. 1998-1999 John MacArthur]

TK wrote:Is it possible that every one's name starts out in the book of life, and is blotted out if they don't accept Christ?

I have always wondered about this. I think I even heard David Jeremiah preach this one time (but it has been a while).

TK

Hi TK,
I thing you are correct.

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

It would seem to me that Jesus taught that all children were part of the kingdom. Well, since we were all at one point children, it would seem that everyone's name was written in the book of life, and at some point later would be blotted out if that did not believe, and Follow Christ.


Robin