Uncaused choices?

[Guest]

Most people believe what separates us from animals is our ability to reason things out and make free will choices, yet despite this we see people make self destructive choices over and over again. If our will is free why do we continue to make bad choices whether it be not exercising, not eating healthy or not pursuing God? Are our choices uncaused?
In the garden the bible says that God created everything and it was good. Like the serpent was good, really good for the purpose it was created.
"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Has God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
And the women said to the serpent, we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden"
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die."
Eve was not deceived, she set the serpent straight , she reasoned things out, she used her intellectual capacity yet in the end what happened?

She had lust in her eyes, lust in her heart and the pride of life , wanting wisdom so she could be like God. Was this her free will choice?

Paul says it was not her free will "As the serpent BEGUILED Eve through his subtlety" 2 Cor 11.3
Eve said "the serpent beguiled me" Gen 3.13 How about God, did He blame Eve's free will?
"And the Lord God said to the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle" 3.14
There it is, God's own answer.

[Guest]

If our will is free why do we continue to make bad choices whether it be not exercising, not eating healthy or not pursuing God? Are our choices uncaused?

If our choices were uncaused, they would be "random". We, ourselves, are the cause of our choices. Our choices are closely related to our character. Our character was formed over a period of time.

Because we biologically inherited a tendency to wrongdoing, beginning with Adam and Eve, man continually makes poor choices. Nevertheless, each healthy person is free to choose against the "dictates" of his character.

[Guest]

Eve was not deceived, she set the serpent straight , she reasoned things out, she used her intellectual capacity yet in the end what happened?
...
Paul says it was not her free will "As the serpent BEGUILED Eve through his subtlety" 2 Cor 11.3
Eve said "the serpent beguiled me" Gen 3.13 How about God, did He blame Eve's free will?
"And the Lord God said to the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle" 3.14
There it is, God's own answer. [emphasis added]

She wasn't deceived? I hope you mean that she wasn't initially, and then allowed herself to be.

From Gen 3:13:

H5377
נשׁא
nâshâ'
Total KJV Occurrences: 13
deceive, 7
2Ki_18:29, 2Ki_19:10, 2Ch_32:15, Isa_36:14, Isa_37:10, Jer_37:8-9 (2)
deceived, 5
Isa_19:13, Jer_4:10, Jer_49:16, Oba_1:3, Oba_1:7
beguiled, 1
Gen_3:13

From 2 Cor 11:3:

G1818
ἐξαπατάω
exapataō
Total KJV Occurrences: 5
deceive, 3
Rom_16:18, 1Co_3:18, 2Th_2:3
beguiled, 1
2Co_11:3
deceived, 1
Rom_7:11

Did Eve choose to listen to the serpent and so be deceived when he contradicted God in Gen 3:4-5?

Why did you only quote the part of Gen 3 where the serpent asked a question and Eve responded? Why did you stop your quotation right before the verse where the devil started lying? Why say "Eve was not deceived" after verse 3, when she hadn't even been lied to yet? What would she have been deceived about in verse 3, such that she used her intellectual capacity to resist? What did she resist at that point, or "reason out"?

If you chastise your oldest child for convincing your youngest to play with matches, and you say, "Because you have done this, I'm going to punish you," are you implying that you do not hold your youngest responsible for his own actions?

[Guest]

She wasn't deceived? I hope you mean that she wasn't initially, and then allowed herself to be.

Jug, My point was that initially she stood up to Satan yet something happened to change her heart and her mind DESPITE her intellectual ability to reason things out. Yes she was deceived and as for ALLOWING herself to be, Eve had no experience with evil and she is pitted against the craftiest evil creature in the universe.

[Guest]

Why did Adam sin, was it his free will?

"And the man said, the women whom you gave to be WITH ME , she GAVE ME of the tree and i did eat." Gen 3.12

God said to Adam "Because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife, and eaten of this tree" 3.17
God said it "the voice of your wife" yet Adam believed God had given Eve to be WITH HIM.
Adam did not say that God gave the women "to me" or "for me" but to be "WITH HIM" therefore Adam believed she was to be with him and he reminded God about that.
And so Adam DESIRED in his heart to be WITH his wife , yet he was not deceived , he made a choice.
But his choice was caused by his heartfelt desires which compelled him to be WITH EVE.
Free will on Adam's part?

[Guest]

She wasn't deceived? I hope you mean that she wasn't initially, and then allowed herself to be.

Jug, My point was that initially she stood up to Satan yet something happened to change her heart and her mind DESPITE her intellectual ability to reason things out. Yes she was deceived and as for ALLOWING herself to be, Eve had no experience with evil and she is pitted against the craftiest evil creature in the universe.

Well, I'm not sure answering Satan's question constitutes standing up to Satan and reasoning things out. But call it that, if you want.

The real issue is what you're saying about what happened next. You're putting heavy emphasis on the wording that the serpent "beguiled/deceived" her. You're saying that because the Bible says she was deceived, that implies her sin was not a free will choice.

And I'm saying that seems quite silly. Listening to someone contradicting God was not a choice?

You say "something" happened to change her heart and her mind? You imply that because "Eve had no experience with evil and she is pitted against the craftiest evil creature in the universe", it's not fair for me to say she "allowed" herself to be deceived?

What was that "something", Steve? What does the passage say? Let's let the Bible speak.

4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

So what happened? What did this evil, crafty creature do that nullified her free will or mitigates her responsibility? He told her a lie. Basically, "That's not true! It's good! Go for it!"

Please, explain to me what about that lie "changed her heart" such that she was not able to resist. What is it about the serpent's words that removed her capacity to trust God's words? Why should I not say that she chose to listen to someone who was contradicting God? Why should I not say she allowed herself to be deceived?


And I'll repeat what I said about your use of "YOU HAVE DONE THIS":
If you chastise your oldest child for convincing your youngest to play with matches, and you say, "Because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, I'm going to punish you," are you implying that you do not hold your youngest responsible for his own actions? Are you implying that your youngest is not responsible for not heeding your instructions?

Please, defend the way you're using these verses.


I suppose if Satan had appeared to her in glory, pretended to be God, and "lifted the ban" on the fruit, I would be more likely to agree. But telling her that God's words weren't true? How does that mitigate her responsibility?

[Guest]

But his choice was caused by his heartfelt desires which compelled him to be WITH EVE.
Free will on Adam's part?

You seem to be putting quite a lot of weight on an excuse offered up by a kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar. Is there anything in the passage that tells you God accepted Adam's excuse as a mitigating factor?

Does the Bible say that Adam sinned, or not?

[Guest]

Steve7150 wrote:

If our will is free why do we continue to make bad choices whether it be not exercising, not eating healthy or not pursuing God? Are our choices uncaused?

The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it? (Jer. 17:9)

TK

[Guest]

The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it? (Jer. 17:9)


Exactly, where is the free will?

[Guest]

Quote:
If our will is free why do we continue to make bad choices whether it be not exercising, not eating healthy or not pursuing God? Are our choices uncaused?


If our choices were uncaused, they would be "random". We, ourselves, are the cause of our choices. Our choices are closely related to our character. Our character was formed over a period of time.

Because we biologically inherited a tendency to wrongdoing, beginning with Adam and Eve, man continually makes poor choices. Nevertheless, each healthy person is free to choose against the "dictates" of his character.

Pure Semi-Pelagianism bordering upon Pelagianism.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Pelagianism.html

So we have Open Theism and Semi-Pelagianism. Do you want to go for three heresies in a row?

Mark