All to the glory of God!

[Guest]

Why did God make us?

“The Bible is crystal-clear: God created us for his glory. Thus says the Lord, (Don’t Waste Your Life, p. 31 John Piper)

Isaiah 43:5-7
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you.
6 I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”[emphasis mine]

Psalm 79:9
9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of your name; deliver us, and atone for our sins, for your name's sake![emphasis mine]

Psalm 115:1
Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to your name give glory,
for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!
2 Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.[emphasis mine]


Why does God do what He does?

Ephesians 1:3-23
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.[bold emphasis mine]


Some comments:

1. What God does, He does "In love".
2. What God does is done "according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace"
3. What God does is done "according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight"
4. God does everything "according to his purpose"
5. What God does is done "according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
6. God does everything "to the praise of his glory" and "according to the working of his great might"


I can't imagine any scriptures nor know of any that attribute God's reason for doing anything to the "glory of man's libertarian free will".


Romans 11:33-36
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.



Blessing in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

Wayne Grudem on a common Arminian objection to unconditional election:

6. The Bible Says That God Wills to Save Everyone. Another objection to the doctrine of election is that it contradicts certain passages of Scripture that say that God wills for all to be saved. Paul writes of God our Savior, “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). And Peter says, “The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). Do not these passages contradict the idea that God has only chosen certain people to be saved?
One common solution to this question (from the Reformed perspective advocated in this book) is to say that these verses speak of God’s revealed will (telling us what we should do), not his hidden will (his eternal plans for what will happen).20 The verses simply tell us that God invites and commands every person to repent and come to Christ for salvation, but they do not tell us anything about God’s secret decrees regarding who will be saved.
The Arminian theologian Clark Pinnock objects to the idea that God has a secret and a revealed will—he calls it “the exceedingly paradoxical notion of two divine wills regarding salvation.”21 But Pinnock never really answers the question of why all are not saved (from an Arminian perspective). Ultimately Arminians also must say that God wills something more strongly than he wills the salvation of all people, for in fact all are not saved. Arminians claim that the reason why all are not saved is that God wills to preserve the free will of man more than he wills to save everyone. But is this not also making a distinction in two aspects of the will of God? On the one hand God wills that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:5–6; 2 Peter 3:9). But on the other hand he wills to preserve man’s absolutely free choice. In fact, he wills the second thing more than the first. But this means that Arminians also must say that 1 Timothy 2:5–6 and 2 Peter 3:9 do not say that God wills the salvation of everyone in an absolute or unqualified way—they too must say that the verses only refer to one kind or one aspect of God’s will.
Here the difference between the Reformed and the Arminian conception of God’s will is clearly seen. Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that God’s commands in Scripture reveal to us what he wants us to do, and both agree that the commands in Scripture invite us to repent and trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore, in one sense both agree that God wills that we be saved—it is the will that he reveals to us explicitly in the gospel invitation.
But both sides must also say that there is something else that God deems more important than saving everyone. Reformed theologians say that God deems his own glory more important than saving everyone, and that (according to Rom. 9) God’s glory is also furthered by the fact that some are not saved. Arminian theologians also say that something else is more important to God than the salvation of all people, namely, the preservation of man’s free will. So in a Reformed system God’s highest value is his own glory, and in an Arminian system God’s highest value is the free will of man. These are two distinctly different conceptions of the nature of God, and it seems that the Reformed position has much more explicit biblical support than the Arminian position does on this question.
[Systematic Theology Wayne Grudem]

[Guest]

I can't imagine any scriptures nor know of any that attribute God's reason for doing anything to the "glory of man's libertarian free will".

Neither can I.

However, which of the following will result in the greater glory to God?

1. The creation of mankind without free wills, but who are predestined to do whatever He wants.

2. The creation of mankind with free wills, who out of their own choice coupled with the enabling grace of God, will do whatever He wants.

[Guest]

uhhh, #2?

TK

[Guest]

Paidon wrote:

2. The creation of mankind with free wills, who out of their own choice coupled with the enabling grace of God, will do whatever He wants.

If I thought the Bible taught your position, I would gladly join you in affirming it. But instead, I am interested in understanding what God's inspired word says about Himself.

As far as I can tell, God determines in what way He will be most glorified; not man.

Mankind is fallen (me, you, et al).

Genesis 3

3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”[emphasis mine]


Man will fade, but the truth about God in His word........

Isaiah 40:6-8

6A voice says, "Cry!"
And I said, "What shall I cry?"
All flesh is grass,
and all its beauty is like the flower of the field.
7The grass withers, the flower fades
when the breath of the LORD blows on it;
surely the people are grass.
8The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever.[emphasis mine]



and again.......


1 Peter 1:22-25
22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24for

"All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25but the word of the Lord remains forever."

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.[emphasis mine]


Maybe Jesus has something to say about this?

Ah yes, in John 17........

John 17

17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.[emphasis mine]


God the Father and Jesus the Son are glorified by "those whom you have given me, for they are yours.


Where does the glory of God shine brightest?

2 Corinthians 4

4:1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.[emphasis mine] 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


God's glory shines forth most brightly in the "face of Jesus Christ [crucified]. "



Again, does God need us to decide what is love (or loving)? Does God need us to define how He will be most glorified? I pray that the Body of Christ would humbly surrender God's job to Him. He is God and is the only one qualified for the job.


May we follow Paul's advice in verses 1 and 2 and not be the ones in verses 3 and 4.


2 Timothy 4

4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.[emphasis mine]



John Piper writes:

God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the ultimately loving act. And the reason is easy to see. The one and only Reality in the universe that can fully and eternally satisfy the human heart is the glory of God—the beauty of all that God is for us in Jesus. Therefore God would not be loving unless he upholds and displays and magnifies that glory for our everlasting enjoyment. If God were to forsake or dishonor or disregard the infinite worth of his own glory he would be unloving in the same way that a husband is unloving who commits suicide.

Perhaps the best way to see that God's passion for his fame is an expression of his love is to notice that God's mercy is the pinnacle of his glory. This is what he wants to be honored for above all else. You can see this in Romans 15:9 where Paul says that the reason Christ came into the world was so "that the nations might glorify God for his mercy."

Blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

2. The creation of mankind with free wills, who out of their own choice coupled with the enabling grace of God, will do whatever He wants.

This is what heresy does to you.
Turns you into a mass of contradiction.

will do whatever He wants.

And for the last time, "everyone" believes man makes choices and has a will.
The issue is "libertarianism" not man having a will that makes choices.

Paidon doesn't get it.
Arminians do not get it.

Why is it, that Atheists and philosophers get it?
Why is it, that my three girls under age 11 get it?
Why is it my wife gets it?

Everyone of any "note" in Church history got it?

Enter again man's tradition to cling to autonomous free will.

The sad thing is people like Steve Gregg, who have so much good to say in other Christian areas, have nothing scriptural to say in this one important area.

Then again, having much good to say in other areas with this one area being misunderstood, really means that all those other areas can only really help those who understand free will, like Calvinists for instance!

The Non-Calvinist will get some good things from Gregg's other teachings, but not enough to rightly deal with the practical implications.

Our understanding of this one thing, "free will" affects how we respond to anything and everything in the right way. That is how important this subject is.

Thankfully, a lot of Arminians live inconsistently with their theology, it is the consistent ones I fear for. Ones like Paidon, who openly embraces Open Theism and other heretical ideas about God.

Jesus never ever dealt with people as if they had this free autonomous will that human tradition espouses, never ever.

Mark

[Guest]

2. The creation of mankind with free wills, who out of their own choice coupled with the enabling grace of God, will do whatever He wants.

This is what heresy does to you.
Turns you into a mass of contradiction.

will do whatever He wants.

And for the last time, "everyone" believes man makes choices and has a will.
The issue is "libertarianism" not man having a will that makes choices.

Paidon doesn't get it.
Arminians do not get it.

Why is it, that Atheists and philosophers get it?
Why is it, that my three girls under age 11 get it?
Why is it my wife gets it?

Everyone of any "note" in Church history got it?

Enter again man's tradition to cling to autonomous free will.

The sad thing is people like Steve Gregg, who have so much good to say in other Christian areas, have nothing scriptural to say in this one important area.

Then again, having much good to say in other areas with this one area being misunderstood, really means that all those other areas can only really help those who understand free will, like Calvinists for instance!

The Non-Calvinist will get some good things from Gregg's other teachings, but not enough to rightly deal with the practical implications.

Our understanding of this one thing, "free will" affects how we respond to anything and everything in the right way. That is how important this subject is.

Thankfully, a lot of Arminians live inconsistently with their theology, it is the consistent ones I fear for. Ones like Paidon, who openly embraces Open Theism and other heretical ideas about God.

Jesus never ever dealt with people as if they had this free autonomous will that human tradition espouses, never ever.

Mark

Mark,

This entire post was nothing more that insults and slander. Is this what you are reduced to? Every time Piadion make a point (many of which make very good sense) you respond by calling him a heretic. Most of us here want to see a good debate of the issue, but it seems that all you are interested in is insulting the intelligence of those that disagree with you. It’s a real sign of someone who is losing a debate.

Robin

[Guest]

mark wrote:

Why is it my wife gets it?

man, if my wife saw that i wrote that about her, i might be in the doghouse.

TK

[Guest]

tartanarmy wrote:

The sad thing is people like Steve Gregg, who have so much good to say in other Christian areas, have nothing scriptural to say in this one important area.

My question to you is: How did you know this????????????????????

[Guest]

Robin wrote:

This entire post was nothing more that insults and slander. Is this what you are reduced to? Every time Piadion make a point (many of which make very good sense) you respond by calling him a heretic. Most of us here want to see a good debate of the issue, but it seems that all you are interested in is insulting the intelligence of those that disagree with you. It’s a real sign of someone who is losing a debate

.
I would like to add that this is also a sign of an immature Christian.