The Narrow Path Ministries

The Greek word for "faith" is pistis and has a basic meaning of:
"to have complete confidence, total assurance, and/or resolute trust."

"Faith" (which is really complete trust, etc.) is something that happens in relationships: 2 way relationships. In all of the friendships I've developed in life; they happened the way all friendships always do. You know, you meet someone, have some common interest and so forth, and decide you want get to know them better. You make arrangements to get together with them and, as the relationship gets deeper, the level of trust grows. You may come to love and trust one another other very deeply. And no matter what the level of intimacy is, we all trust our friends to some degree (or they wouldn't be our friends, lol).

People who want you to "earn" their friendship; well, if someone does that, they aren't going to be too successful...and will probably be sitting alone on lunch break. I mean, do I have to pass a "test" for someone to like me? No, thanks, take me as I am, please. My point point is: Demanding that people "earn" your friendship or "work for it" isn't the best way to: Win Friends and Influence People ....

God doesn't put people to the test like this -- He's just not like that. He sees us as we are, as bad and weak and everything else that we are, and invites us to trust in Him (remember? this is having faith)!

I've accepted God's invitation. As He worked on me, and with me, bearing with me in my resistance...I finally saw Him for Who He was and is! I said a very short prayer, "Okay," (but really meant it on the inside...I trusted in Him...and it was the most serious "Okay" I have ever said)! And this was no more of a "work" or my somehow "earning my salvation" than...the Man in the Moon

Some Calvinists accuse Non-Calvinists of "working for" or "earning" their salvation. Growing up in an Arminian church, and attending one for several years, and at 51 years of age; I've never heard the slightest HINT from any Arminian that they thought they "earned their salvation" or "worked" for it (and I just came short of graduating from an Assemblies of God Bible college).

I don't want to get into a big debate about this as I understand Calvinistic doctrine and probably know all the arguments. But whether Calvinism, Arminianism/other is right or not (I don't consider myself a Calvinist or Arminian):

NO ONE (Calvinist or Arminian/Other) can "work" for or do anything to "earn their salvation." Not only is it impossible; it is ABSURD.
(imnsho, well, it's how I voted anyway)

Btw, Praise God and the Lord Jesus, Amen?

Thanks & Have a Nice Day,
Rick

This will probably be my last post here. I do not think I have left anything unsaid from my exchanges with others. If I have please let me know.

I am leaving because Mr Gregg has decided to single me out in a way that I consider inconsistent with others posting here and has decided to delete my posts, and not to mention, utterly lacking in meaningful interaction, being full of mere assertions.

I've accepted God's invitation. As He worked on me, and with me, bearing with me in my resistance...I finally saw Him for Who He was and is! I said a very short prayer, "Okay," (but really meant it on the inside...I trusted in Him...and it was the most serious "Okay" I have ever said)!

“I accepted”, “I finally saw”, “I said a prayer” etc etc

My point is really quite simple. Given the above statements, it is obvious that the difference between yourself and an unbeliever, is because of something you have done.
It is not grace alone, i.e. Monergism
but grace plus works i.e. Synergism.

Scripture teaches that salvation (including faith) is by sheer grace , in fact v5 of Romans 11 teaches an “election of grace” and if anything is added to it, then it is no longer grace, but in fact works.

And, we must also bear in mind, that elsewhere in Romans, the argument about grace and faith is in reference to ”Justification” not “regeneration. That is important.

There is no disagreement from the Calvinist regarding faith as necessary for justification.

Again, the argument pivots upon the nature and means of acquiring faith, not justification which follows.

Rom 11:6 But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Also scripture say’s.

1Co 4:7 For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

That statement is relevant to the claim that Arminians so often claim when they have made the difference by “accepting” the gift, by “allowing God” to save them, by “their prayer” to invite Jesus into their hearts or as the above poster has plainly stated, “I accepted”, “I finally saw”, “I said a prayer” etc etc

Whatever the “I” is, it is boasting, plain and simple.

The Calvinist goes out of their way to give “all the glory” to God who has saved them and does so out of thankfullness. He does not see himself as one who did something his neighbour has not done. The only difference between the Calvinist and the unbeliever is the grace of God alone, just like 1 Cor 4:7 states.

It makes no difference how much a sinner screams that accepting a gift is not works!

That is not the ISSUE between Calvinism and Arminianism.
The issue is, from "where" and "how" is grace applied and faith received.
That is the difference between grace alone and "a work of man".

When you say,

“As He worked on me, and with me, bearing with me in my resistance”

I have a simple question. Does God do this with everyone?

If He does, then we can pat ourselves on the back for doing the right thing, but if God does not do this with everyone, then God gets the glory alone and not us.

Feel free to explain how your faith has not been turned into a work?

Let me try this approach to see if you guys are getting it.
Hypothetically, for the sake of argument. If regeneration did precede faith, would you then affirm that "faith" is a work of man and therefore not grace alone?

It all boils down to one fundamental principal.
What makes the difference at the end of the day between a believer and an unbeliever?

a/ An act of God (regeneration) with an act of the will (faith) as the result
or
b/ An act of the human will choosing rightly over those who do not choose rightly, as God is doing the same calling of all, therefore God cannot make the difference, the will of the creature makes the difference?

Mark

The Calvinist goes out of their way to give “all the glory” to God who has saved them and does so out of thankfullness. He does not se

Paradoxically in going out of your way in giving "all the glory to God" it is the Calvinist who desires to believe in his own humility , past the point of biblical humility which repeatedly calls us to repent.
John the Baptist commanded his listeners to repent because the kingdom of God was approaching , yet at that point there was no Holy Spirit available to indwell the repentent individual. Therefore either John was mistaken or you are mistaken.

I don't really want to say too much on this because I have been repeating over and over and over again (just as the apostle Paul did) that faith and works are not the same, and Paul gives no qualifier that the faith be a gift in order for it to be distinguished from a work. That Calvinism can so twist an individual's mind that the person is unable to perceive this is troubling to me. This is why I do not easily harken to any "logical" system that tries to bring Scripture under its banner.

I responded to Mark's exact questioning on another board and he gave me no feedback on my comments.

Lewis

What I find puzzling (and even a little humorous) Mark is that you don't even see your own self-contradictory statements.

you wrote:

Whatever the “I” is, it is boasting, plain and simple.

And then in the very next stroke you say:

The Calvinist goes out of their way to give “all the glory” to God who has saved them and does so out of thankfullness.

What you are really saying (using 1st person instead of 3rd) is:
"I (the Calvinist) go out of my way to give all the glory to God" whereby (by implication) the Arminian does not.

In other words, by your own assertion, you (the Calvinist) do something that a non-Calvinist does not (i.e. give God "all the glory"). Are you then "boasting"? So how can you say:

He does not see himself as one who did something his neighbour has not done.

If you're going to call accepting a free gift a "work", then you must also say that "giving" God "all the glory" is a work as well. I don't believe either are "works" using any scriptural definition of the word.

One quick post: have to go to work....

Afaik, the words monergism and synergism are not biblical (not in the Bible). I've been trying to find who first used and/or invented these words (theological terms) and my guess is: Augustine, earliest.......gtg, thanks, Rick

Rick, et al,

Might want to open this discussion again:

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=883

Homer,

Yes, I saw that thread before (a very good one)!
I don't have anything to add there for now though. Btw, I've been copying some of your posts and am saving them as "notes." You bring up a lot of interesting points I'd never thought of.

My cousin, who is a pastor, may visit here later this summer. He's a Calvinist and always wants to debate about it (and I never do). At any rate, some of the things you've brought up on this forum may be points he & I could consider together, and, perhaps, have a meaningful discussion (?)

Thanks Homer,
Rick

The Calvinist goes out of their way to give “all the glory” to God who has saved them and does so out of thankfullness. He does not se

Paradoxically in going out of your way in giving "all the glory to God" it is the Calvinist who desires to believe in his own humility , past the point of biblical humility which repeatedly calls us to repent.
John the Baptist commanded his listeners to repent because the kingdom of God was approaching , yet at that point there was no Holy Spirit available to indwell the repentent individual. Therefore either John was mistaken or you are mistaken.

I have no clue what you are getting at there...
If I am boasting, I am boasting in this. Let God have all the glory in saving me.

Gal 6:14 But may it never be for me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.

2Co 10:13 But we will not boast beyond measure, but according to the measure of the rule which the God of measure distributed to us, to reach even to you.

2Co 11:16 Again I say, Let no one think me foolish. If otherwise, yet receive me as foolish, so that I may also boast a little.

2Co 11:18 Since many glory according to the flesh, I also will boast.

I don't really want to say too much on this because I have been repeating over and over and over again (just as the apostle Paul did) that faith and works are not the same, and Paul gives no qualifier that the faith be a gift in order for it to be distinguished from a work. That Calvinism can so twist an individual's mind that the person is unable to perceive this is troubling to me. This is why I do not easily harken to any "logical" system that tries to bring Scripture under its banner.

I responded to Mark's exact questioning on another board and he gave me no feedback on my comments.

Lewis

Where did you ask me such things?

Is faith a gift or not? Please answer if “faith” is something you have as a result of being born again or whether “faith” caused you to be born again. It is a simple question.

If your faith caused you to be born again, then that is a work of man, not the grace of God alone.
If your faith was the result of being born again, then that is grace alone, and to God alone be all the glory.

Which is it?

What I find puzzling (and even a little humorous) Mark is that you don't even see your own self-contradictory statements.

you wrote:
Quote:
Whatever the “I” is, it is boasting, plain and simple.


And then in the very next stroke you say:
Quote:
The Calvinist goes out of their way to give “all the glory” to God who has saved them and does so out of thankfulness.


What you are really saying (using 1st person instead of 3rd) is:
"I (the Calvinist) go out of my way to give all the glory to God" whereby (by implication) the Arminian does not.

True. The Calvinist rightfully gives the credit to God, the Arminian does not. It is a boasting in God, not ourselves or our own ability.

In other words, by your own assertion, you (the Calvinist) do something that a non-Calvinist does not (i.e. give God "all the glory"). Are you then "boasting"? So how can you say:

Quote:
He does not see himself as one who did something his neighbour has not done.

Are you accusing me of giving God all the glory as something I am doing that my neighbour is not doing?
Yes, absolutely.

Does that then make me better than my neighbour? Yes, it makes me “better” at admitting my poverty of spirit and better at admitting how much I am dependant upon God.
If that is boasting then so be it.

But keep in mind what the Arminian is saying.
He has made a decision by an act of his will to trust in Christ. His neighbour has not done so, therefore the Arminian is doing something that the neighbour is not doing, therefore the Arminian can have a boast before God, for he has made the vital difference by an act of his supposed free will.

I am not claiming that at all. I am saying that the only difference between me and my neighbour is the grace of God, and not an act of my supposed free will.

My boast is in God, not my free will ability to believe.

If you cannot see the difference and still find my answer humorous, I suggest you seriously take another look at this issue.

If you're going to call accepting a free gift a "work", then you must also say that "giving" God "all the glory" is a work as well. I don't believe either are "works" using any scriptural definition of the word.

Giving God all the glory is indeed a work, but not a work leading to salvation/regeneration/justification. It is a work of sanctification and not meritorious.

Giving to your free will, the ability to make the difference between you and your neighbour is not sanctification, anything but!, it is a boast that leads to salvation, including even regeneration!!

My, how you can twist all of that against a Calvinist I find astounding.

Mark

tartanarmy,

Why did you make a mockery of my prayer to God?
I know He heard me...so....that's all that matters to me.
(I don't really know you, answer if you want, up to you)....
Have a Nice Day,
Rick