The Narrow Path Ministries

I do think that the Calvinists are correct here. There does seems to be two distinct calls of God. A general call - many are called and few are chosen and a specific call:


Romans 9:

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 8:

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Heb.9:15

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

There are a number of other proof texts, but these should do for now...

James, thank you for those scriptures. I'm no expert but I can tell you the average non-Calvinist interpretation of these passages, since I'm in that camp myself. I see "those who are called" as the church, made up of believing Jews and Gentiles. That category of people (those in Christ) were predistined before the creation of the world. Paul doesn't seem to address the issue of personal salvation very often, but is much more interested in revealing what he calls the "mystery of God in Christ Jesus" which is a Godly "nation" made up of both Jews and Gentiles.... the new Israel.

Those in Christ are elect because Christ is the elected one. He's the seed of Abraham through whom all nations will be blessed. If individual persons are elected by God for salvation before they are even born, this makes a mess of many other scriptures. No doubt God chooses certain individuals (like John the Baptist or Jacob) to do certain things, but nowhere are we told that certain individuals are "elected" for personal salvation. The bible often speaks in categories and we like to interpret using "me and I." That's fine, so long as "me and I" is part of the group called Christians... since they are elect in Christ Jesus.

JC wrote:James, thank you for those scriptures. I'm no expert but I can tell you the average non-Calvinist interpretation of these passages, since I'm in that camp myself. I see "those who are called" as the church, made up of believing Jews and Gentiles. That category of people (those in Christ) were predistined before the creation of the world. Paul doesn't seem to address the issue of personal salvation very often, but is much more interested in revealing what he calls the "mystery of God in Christ Jesus" which is a Godly "nation" made up of both Jews and Gentiles.... the new Israel.

Those in Christ are elect because Christ is the elected one. He's the seed of Abraham through whom all nations will be blessed. If individual persons are elected by God for salvation before they are even born, this makes a mess of many other scriptures. No doubt God chooses certain individuals (like John the Baptist or Jacob) to do certain things, but nowhere are we told that certain individuals are "elected" for personal salvation. The bible often speaks in categories and we like to interpret using "me and I." That's fine, so long as "me and I" is part of the group called Christians... since they are elect in Christ Jesus.

Thanks JC, but that does not make sense to me. You are in effect saying the one is called only after he enters the church. Having said that - you would then agree that there are two "calls" of God. One that applies generally and one reserved for the church only - correct?

Hi, James. I'm not why we'd have to conclude that there are two "called ones." Jesus said he came to call sinners to repentence. I agree with him. He's called me to repentence because I believe he's the Son of God. If I didn't believe he was the Son of God then I wouldn't listen to his call. I'm a bit of a simpleton because I tend to interpret the unclear passages in light of the clear. I'd hate to write someone a long letter and then have them analyze a single phrase to interpret the rest of my communication... especially if the phrase they picked out could have several possible meanings.

JC wrote:Hi, James. I'm not why we'd have to conclude that there are two "called ones." Jesus said he came to call sinners to repentence. I agree with him. He's called me to repentence because I believe he's the Son of God. If I didn't believe he was the Son of God then I wouldn't listen to his call. I'm a bit of a simpleton because I tend to interpret the unclear passages in light of the clear. I'd hate to write someone a long letter and then have them analyze a single phrase to interpret the rest of my communication... especially if the phrase they picked out could have several possible meanings.

JC, I don't think you can have it both ways. You said that the "called" in the passages I referenced refered to the church. They can't be the unbelievers to whom the general call is aimed.

That's not what I mean, bro. I'm saying that the term "called" can be used in a variety of ways, depending on the general flow of thought in a given passage. Is the church called out of the world? Yes. Are sinners called to repentence? Yes. Is the church elect in Christ? Yes. So is there one call or two... general, specific or both? Well, it depends what you're talking about. But if you're trying to prove Calvin's view of salvation by using this phrase then you create more problems than you solve. That's all I'm saying.

Paul seems to be referring to the new Israel (in Romans 8 & 9) which he considered a great mystery in his day. Paul's phraseology might be somewhat awkward but taking a holistic approach and comparing what Paul taught about individual and corporate salvation to what Jesus taught on those subjects, we can find agreement. I consider Paul's word usage to be somewhat difficult to understand, as did Peter (2 Pet. 3:16). So I feel it would be safer to approach what Paul says in light of Jesus' clear teachings on the subject of repentence and faith for personal salvation. Again, Paul is taking a more corporate approach to the issue and Jesus spoke a lot more about individual salvation.

When I say there's only one call, I'm speaking of Jesus' calling of individuals into the Kingdom of God, which they enter through repentence and faith. Then there's the "calling" which is a corporate entity known as the new Israel. Paul seems to speak mostly about this, since most of his rebukes centered on a misunderstanding of the Jewish/Gentile relationship in the church. This is merely my own understanding of scripture. Steve Gregg and another non-Calvinists may see things differently.

Hi Jim,

I do want to respond to your point, but have been too overwhelmed in the "catching-up" effort that always awaits me upon returning from a lengthy absence. I thought that, if I delayed long enough, you might call in and raise the points on the program, saving me the effort of writing.
I will try to get my thoughts in writing soon.

Steve wrote:Hi Jim,

I do want to respond to your point, but have been too overwhelmed in the "catching-up" effort that always awaits me upon returning from a lengthy absence. I thought that, if I delayed long enough, you might call in and raise the points on the program, saving me the effort of writing.
I will try to get my thoughts in writing soon.

Hey Bro, how was your trip? Blessed I hope. Perhaps I will call tonight... ; )

but nowhere are we told that certain individuals are "elected" for personal salvation.

This is simply not true.

Everytime Election is discussed in scripture, it always refers to "persons" rather than some kind of plan or such thing.
This kind of eisogesis really needs to get dropped.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,

Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 1:8 which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding;
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Mark

tartanarmy wrote:

but nowhere are we told that certain individuals are "elected" for personal salvation.

This is simply not true.

Everytime Election is discussed in scripture, it always refers to "persons" rather than some kind of plan or such thing.
This kind of eisogesis really needs to get dropped.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,

Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 1:8 which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding;
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Mark

Yes Mark, but they will say that the you and us are collective terms for the church... Not that I think it is...