Macarthur's Commentary on Ephesians 1:4

User avatar
_darin-houston
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:07 am
Location: Houston, TX

Macarthur's Commentary on Ephesians 1:4

Post by _darin-houston » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:17 pm

My wife recently did a study on Ephesians with some women -- the group was working from material clearly written from the Calvinist perspective, and the commentary they provided was Macarthur, so I set out to respond to some of his commentary -- you may enjoy or want to interact with it yourself.


from John MacArthur’s commentary on Ephesians
***

The third kind of election is salvational, the kind of which Paul is speaking in our present text. “No one can come to Me,” Jesus said, “unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). Helkuō (draws) carries the idea of an irresistible force and was used in ancient Greek literature of a desperately hungry man being drawn to food and of demonic forces being drawn to animals when they were not able to possess men. Salvage yards use giant electromagnets to lift and partially sort scrap metal. When the magnet is turned on, a tremendous magnetic force draws all the ferrous metals that are near it, but has no effect on other metals such as aluminum and brass. In a similar way, God’s elective will irresistibly draws to Himself those whom He has predetermined to love and forgive, while having no effect on those whom He has not.
This does not speak to whether the converse is true -- i.e., whether there are those who are "called" or "drawn" who do not come to Christ. That must be found elsewhere. His definition of "drawn" to connote "irresistibility" seems flawed or overly relied upon and, most importantly, doesn't appear to be derived from Scripture or the context of the surrounding text. Basically, I think there's too much emphasis being put on this definition of drawn. From a quick word study of actual Scriptural usage of the term, it is clear that the term is used most commonly in its general sense. Actually letting Scripture inform Scripture, the same word "Helkuo" is used in John 12:32, for example, in this very context is used with respect to all men:

Jn 12:32 "And I 2504, if 1437 I be lifted up 5312 from 1537 the earth 1093, will draw 1670 all 3956 [men] unto 4314 me 1683."

He clearly was lifted up. He does draw all men to Himself -- not all respond because "draw" doesn't mean the irresistible force he suggests it does.
From all eternity, before the foundation of the world, and therefore completely apart from any merit or deserving that any person could have, God chose us in Him, “in Christ” (v. 3). By God’s sovereign election, those who are saved were placed in eternal union with Christ before creation even took place.
This verse doesn't necessarily say that -- it says we were chosen "in Him." The non-Calvinist understanding is that being "in Him" and what that would mean was what was elected before creation. This doesn't necessarily relate to individual election.
Although man’s will is not free in the sense that many people suppose, he does have a will, a will that Scripture clearly recognizes. Apart from God, man’s will is captive to sin. But he is nevertheless able to choose God because God has made that choice possible. Jesus said that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16) and that “everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die” (11:26). The frequent commands to the unsaved to respond to the Lord (e.g., Josh. 24:15; Isa. 55:1; Matt. 3:1–2; 4:17; 11:28–30; John 5:40; 6:37; 7:37–39; Rev. 22:17) clearly indicate the responsibility of man to exercise his own will.

Yet the Bible is just as clear that no person receives Jesus Christ as Savior who has not been chosen by God (cf. Rom. 8:29; 9:11; 1 Thess. 1:3–4; 1 Pet. 1:2).
I have no problem with "mystery" when it's called for. But, these two positions are logically inconsistent and provide an un-necessary tension and reliance on "mystery" that would be easily resolved if they would just let go of their presuppositions. It's especially telling that he string-cites this one -- this is exactly the point where the debate exists and his failure to explain how these verses are exegeted does a dis-service to the debate.

The non-Calvinist sees Rom. 8 and 9 to deal with Israel corporately or his wrath against those who purposefully chose not to follow him.

1 Thess. 1 uses the term "choice" could well refer to his "plan" for them as being examples as a church to the world (the task God chooses for his whole church and all believers) and does not suggest in any way that they were chosen for salvation, but for their service (as is true of all believers). He chose the church to glorify Him through their service and love. That could well be all this is suggesting.

1 Pet. 1 : As the verse says "elect according to the foreknowledge of God." It is his seeing who would be saved not his requiring it. Wesley says thus: The true predestination, or fore-appointment of God is: (1) He that believeth shall be saved from the guilt and power of sin. 2. He that endureth to the end shall be saved eternally. 3. They who receive the precious gift of faith, thereby become the sons of God; and, being sons, they shall receive the Spirit of holiness to walk as Christ also walked. Throughout every part of this appointment of God, promise and duty go hand in hand. All is free gift; and yet such is the gift, that the final issue depends on our future obedience to the heavenly call. But other predestination than this, either to life or death eternal, the scripture knows not of.

Each of these is dealing with Israel or the church (and their purposes) -- which are precisely the "objects' that the non-Calvinist would suggest are the subjects of God's eternal "choice."
Jesus gives both truths in one verse in the gospel of John: “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37).
John 6:37 All that the Father gives to me will come to me. The one who comes to me I will in no means cast out.
 
This is true -- all that the Father gave to Jesus did come to Him -- the question is "who are those people"? Who "did" the Father give to Him? That answer is elsewhere in Scripture.... In John 17:6, Jesus is praying about his disciples and he says to His father "I have manifested your name to the men whom you have given to me out of the world." So, these are those who the Father had given to Him.
 
He says "they were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word." When he talks about these people (frequently), he's talking about people who were "ALREADY" the Lord's people. Now, Jesus did NOT believe that all the jewish people were God's people. (e.g., "you were of your Father, the devil -- you're not God's people, you're the devil's people.") Jesus does NOT indicate that God took some of the devil's people and gave them to Jesus. Before Jesus arrived, the faithful remnant was God's people. God took these and gave THEM to Jesus. They were already committed to God, and it is natural that they (the true remnant) would believe in the Messiah when he was announced -- those who were still alive in fact did, and Jesus is just stating that he already knew that they would.
God’s sovereign election and man’s exercise of responsibility in choosing Jesus Christ seem opposite and irreconcilable truths—and from our limited human perspective they are opposite and irreconcilable. That is why so many earnest, well–meaning Christians throughout the history of the church have floundered trying to reconcile them. Since the problem cannot be resolved by our finite minds, the result is always to compromise one truth in favor of the other or to weaken both by trying to take a position somewhere between them.

We should let the antimony remain, believing both truths completely and leaving the harmonizing of them to God.
Eklegō (chose) is here in the aorist tense and the middle voice, indicating God’s totally independent choice. Because the verb is reflexive it signifies that God not only chose by Himself but for Himself. His primary purpose in electing the church was the praise of His own glory (vv. 6, 12, 14). Believers were chosen for the Lord’s glory before they were chosen for their own good. The very reason for calling out believers into the church was that “the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places” (3:10).
Again, I have no problem with antimony where it is needed -- the problem here is that there is a good and reasonable interpretation of these texts that doesn't require these mysteries, though some do still remain. His translation of "chose" here is fine -- we have no problem with his choosing something before the foundations of the world -- the difference is "what" was chosen (the "object" and "nature" of the choice). We agree that believers and the church were chosen for His glory -- that doesn't require that they were chosen for salvation, but could mean that the purpose and plan with which those who would be saved would participate and the end he had in mind for whomever would believe was chosen. The "choosing" God does in the bible seems to always be related to a purpose. However, even that choice can be thwarted -- for instance, if a given believer (who is chosen to glorify God in his salvation) fails in measure to live according to the Spirit in everything he does, he doesn't glorify God in that measure. God saves us from the slavery of sin for a purpose (to live for His glory)-- I believe it is that purpose which is what is important to Him -- not who fulfills it (in most cases). This purpose is rarely debated; however, the Calvinist typically even sees this a bit differently as a result of their theology. The Calvinist usually believes that the main plan is to show how Holy He is in that He can make these choices and nothing can thwart them. The non-Calvinist believes that His purposes relate more to his desire to be glorified when people who are led by the Spirit reveal the love and holiness of Himself through their sanctified lives.
Israel was God’s elect, His “chosen one” (Isa. 45:4; cf. 65:9, 22). But she was told, “The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. but because the Lord loved you” (Deut. 7:7–8). God chose the Jews simply out of His sovereign love.
I have no problem with that -- they were chosen for a particular purpose -- which was not individual salvation. Moreover, Paul makes it clear in Romans that even this "elect" group was defined by their belief and obedience in Him. There were non-Jews in "chosen Israel" and there were many Jews who were not "chosen." Even their chosen-ness was based on their response to His call. There is nothing to suggest He decided which individuals made up the faithful Remnant -- just that He chose what benefits would be provided and how they would be used that did make up the Remnant based on their faithfulness to Him.
God’s heavenly angels also are elect (1 Tim. 5:21), chosen by Him to glorify His name and to be His messengers. Christ Himself was elect (1 Pet. 2:6, KJV), and the apostles were elect (John 15:16). By the same sovereign plan and will the church is elect. God “has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Tim. 1:9).
Again, they were chosen for a purpose -- the non-Calvinist believes in election of the church -- just not individual predetermined election without condition for salvation.
In Acts we are told, “And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (13:48).
There is much debate over the meaning of the term "tasso" here ("appointed"). Some scholars believe it means "were disposed," which would only mean that the Spirit moved so forcefully here that all who were going to believe went ahead and did so. In other words, there were no people here who left "on the edge" of belief. Either definition can be seen this way, but "appointed" in English does "imply" even without requiring that it was appointed previously at some point with specificity to who were "supposed" to believe. Another definition is often "ordained" which is similar to appointed, but neither terms are even translated by those scholars as "pre-appointed" or "pre-ordained" so scholarship recognizes there is just no indication that Luke had this concept particularly in mind when he wrote this.
Paul said, “For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory” (2 Tim. 2:10). His heart’s desire was to reach the elect, the ones who were already chosen, in order that they might take hold of the faith already granted them in God’s sovereign decree.
This one sounds like a closer, but still could be referring to the members individually who would make up the church, collectively. Paul does have a strange use of the term, sometimes, but the overwhelming body of support suggests this could be imprecise or just ambiguous. Looking at it one way, though, there's nothing odd about Paul referring to those in the church (or to whom would be so) as the "chosen" if we already grant that the church is the "chosen" group. It doesn't require that the "chosen" were chosen by person and from eternity past.
Paul gave thanks for the church because it was God’s elect. “We should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13).
This is just classic Pauline reference to the church. He just continues to emphasize (because of his past and Jewish critics) that this "church" and "gentile" thing was pre-ordained from the beginning. This was not a new plan but the fulfillment of the original one in all mankind who would believe. The Gentiles should rejoice, indeed, that God from the beginning planned that the church would be saved in this way.
In his book Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, J. I. Packer observes:

All Christians believe in divine sovereignty, but some are not aware that they do, and mistakenly imagine and insist that they reject it. What causes this odd state of affairs? The root cause is the same as in most cases of error in the Church—the intruding of rationalistic speculations, the passion for systematic consistency, a reluctance to recognize the existence of mystery and to let God be wiser than men, and a consequent subjecting of Scripture to the supposed demands of human logic. People see the Bible teaches man’s responsibility for his actions; they do not see (man, indeed, cannot see) how this is consistent with the sovereign Lordship of God over those actions. They are not content to let the two truths live side by side, as they do in the Scriptures, but jump to the conclusion that, in order to uphold the biblical truth of human responsibility, they are bound to reject the equally biblical and equally true doctrine of divine sovereignty, and to explain away the great number of texts that teach it. The desire to over–simplify the Bible by cutting out the mysteries is natural to our perverse minds, and it is not surprising that even godly men should fall victim to it. Hence this persistent and troublesome dispute. The irony of the situation, however, is that when we ask how the two sides pray, it becomes apparent that those who profess to deny God’s sovereignty really believe in it just as strongly as those who affirm it. ([Chicago: Inter–Varsity, 1961], pp. 16–17)
Because we cannot stand the tension of mystery, paradox, or antinomy, we are inclined to adjust what the Bible teaches so that it will fit our own systems of order and consistency. But that presumptuous approach is unfaithful to God’s Word and leads to confused doctrine and weakened living. It should be noted that other essential scriptural doctrines are also apparently paradoxical to our limited capacity. It is antinomous that Scripture itself the work of human authors, yet the very words of God; that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man; that salvation is forever, yet saints must remain obedient and persevere to the end; that the Christian’s life is lived in total commitment and discipline of self yet is all of Christ. Such inscrutable truths are an encouragement that the mind of God infinitely surpasses the mind of man and are a great proof of the divine authorship of Scripture. Humans writing a Bible on their own would have attempted to resolve such problems.
I have no problem with mystery -- I think it's quite mysterious how God can know our choices but still ensure that we have them, but Scripture seems to teach that it is so. Only God can know how this works.
It is not that God’s sovereign election, or predestination, eliminates man’s choice in faith. Divine sovereignty and human response are integral and inseparable parts of salvation—though exactly how they operate together only the infinite mind of God knows.
That sounds nice, but his position as it is explained more fully does deny any real choice -- it's not resolvable as mystery -- it's not even paradox, it's illogical.
Nor is it, as many believe and teach, that God simply looks into the future to see which people are going to believe and then elects them to salvation. Taken out of context, Romans 8:29 is often used to support that view. But verse 28 makes it clear that those whom God foresees and predestines to salvation are those whom He has already “called according to His purpose.”
Actually, it is the context of Romans 8 that serves the non-Calvinist -- the context makes it clear that it is the destiny of those who are in Christ which is what is predestined and not which people that will be.
Any teaching that diminishes the sovereign, electing love of God by giving more credit to men also diminishes God’s glory, thus striking a blow at the very purpose of salvation.
Now, we reach the main point -- this is the reason for the Calvinists presupposition and strict adherence to often awkward interpretations (though both sides need sometimes awkward interpretations, it seems). It's not about credit -- it's about what type of God we serve -- there is no "credit" in making a decision to accept Christ's Lordship, and if God can in His sovereignty create a world that ensures His plans are fulfilled while still providing freedom to make that choice, now that's a Sovereign God.
We should be satisfied simply to declare with John Chadwick,
I sought the Lord,
And afterwards I knew
He moved my soul to seek Him,
Seeking me! It was not that I found,
O Savior true;
No, I was found by Thee.

The Object—The Elect

The object of election is us, not everyone, but only those whom God chose, the saints and “faithful in Christ Jesus” (v. 1). Those whom God elects are those whom He has declared holy before the foundation of the world and who have identified with His Son Jesus Christ by faith. Being a Christian is having been chosen by God to be His child and to inherit all things through and with Jesus Christ.

The Time—Eternity Past

God elected us before the foundation of the world. Before the creation, the Fall, the covenants, or the law, we were sovereignly predestined by God to be His. He designed the church, the Body of His Son, before the world began.

Because in God’s plan Christ was crucified for us “before the foundation of the world” (1 Pet. 1:20), we were designated for salvation by that same plan at that same time. It was then that our inheritance in God’s kingdom was determined (Matt. 25:34). We belonged to God before time began, and we will be His after time has long run its course. Our names as believers were “written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain” (Rev. 13:8; cf. 17:8).
This can all be reconciled by just letting go of the Calvinist presuppositions. Tozer had no problem with it. He thought he had found a "middle ground," but it is the very ground most Orthodox non-Calvinists take today. The "modern Arminian" is usually more along this Tozer quote than with Arminius.
Tozer wrote: "The attempt to answer these questions [the TULIP questions] has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other."  ***  Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, "What doest thou?" Man's will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

_bshow
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Macarthur's Commentary on Ephesians 1:4

Post by _bshow » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:25 pm

darin-houston wrote:
John MacArthur wrote:From all eternity, before the foundation of the world, and therefore completely apart from any merit or deserving that any person could have, God chose us in Him, “in Christ” (v. 3). By God’s sovereign election, those who are saved were placed in eternal union with Christ before creation even took place.
This verse doesn't necessarily say that -- it says we were chosen "in Him." The non-Calvinist understanding is that being "in Him" and what that would mean was what was elected before creation. This doesn't necessarily relate to individual election.
[/quote]

The "non-Calvinist understanding" is simply not supported by the grammar. This is classic eisegesis, and you haven't interacted with MacArthur's perfectly reasonable exegesis at all.

The grammar is clear: the direct object of "chosen" is "us". People are chosen, not plans, not Christ, not amorphous groups, but "us". Same for verses 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, etc.

Cheers,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Homer
Posts: 639
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Brownsville

Post by _Homer » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:23 am

Bob wrote:
The grammar is clear: the direct object of "chosen" is "us". People are chosen, not plans, not Christ, not amorphous groups, but "us".
This is a startling statement. We are chosen without regard to our being in Christ!

Ephesians 1:4 (New King James Version)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,


The calvinist must assume that Paul meant to say "just as He chose us (to be) in Him", but there is no "to be" in the text. Bob asserts the language is clear. If so, then "in Him" is irrevelent to God's choosing, a seeming absurdity. But by the "in Him" our election is more closely defined and limited: Christ, the person (body of Christ), in which we are the objects of Divine election.

God chose "us in Him" based on His foreknowledge:

1 Peter 1:1-2 (New King James Version)

1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2. elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.


And Peter refers to corporate election, which necessarily includes the individual members:

1 Peter 5:13 (King James Version)

13. The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


The statements are applicable to the individual only insofar as they are members of the body of Christ. Individuals are not the immediate objects of election, Jesus is. And the church is an organism, a whole, and is elected as such. It is not just a collection of individuals.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
A Berean

_bshow
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Post by _bshow » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:17 am

Homer wrote:Bob wrote:
The grammar is clear: the direct object of "chosen" is "us". People are chosen, not plans, not Christ, not amorphous groups, but "us".
This is a startling statement. We are chosen without regard to our being in Christ!
Ephesians 1:4 (New King James Version)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,


The calvinist must assume that Paul meant to say "just as He chose us (to be) in Him", but there is no "to be" in the text.
Well that's wrong. I must assume no such thing. The verse says that He chose us to be holy and without blame before Him.

You have quite a task to deflect the force of this passage. The grammar just won't bend to your position. It is "us" who are chosen.
Homer wrote:Bob asserts the language is clear. If so, then "in Him" is irrevelent to God's choosing, a seeming absurdity.
Homer, instead of knocking down straw men, please study what Calvinists actually believe. MacArthur and others carefully explain "in Him" and we believe it is absolutely critical to the passage. God chooses to extend His grace to us in view of the atonement for our sin provided by Jesus.
Homer wrote:But by the "in Him" our election is more closely defined and limited: Christ, the person (body of Christ), in which we are the objects of Divine election.
I have no idea what that means. "in Him" establishes the foundation for our election. "Him" is not the object of election.
Homer wrote:God chose "us in Him" based on His foreknowledge:

1 Peter 1:1-2 (New King James Version)

1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2. elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
And the eisegesis continues. First you change "according to" into "based on", and then you assume "foreknowledge" to mean "foreknowledge about something (the free-will decisions of men)". Where is "in Him" in this passage? Again, the objects of election are "the pilgrims", i.e. individual believers.
Homer wrote: And Peter refers to corporate election, which necessarily includes the individual members:

1 Peter 5:13 (King James Version)

13. The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
Where do we learn that the church at Babylon was elect as a separate entity from the individual election of its members? You say the church "includes" the individual members; but the church *is* the individual members; it has no separate existence.
Homer wrote:The statements are applicable to the individual only insofar as they are members of the body of Christ. Individuals are not the immediate objects of election, Jesus is.
Sorry, you can't make the passage say that. Christ is not the object of election to "be holy and without blame before Him". We are the ones to be holy and without blame before Him.
Homer wrote:And the church is an organism, a whole, and is elected as such. It is not just a collection of individuals.
Again, the verse doesn't support you. The only object of election in the passage is "us", people, individuals.

Cheers,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

__id_2632
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Macarthur's Commentary on Ephesians 1:4

Post by __id_2632 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:39 am

bshow1 wrote:
darin-houston wrote: This verse doesn't necessarily say that -- it says we were chosen "in Him." The non-Calvinist understanding is that being "in Him" and what that would mean was what was elected before creation. This doesn't necessarily relate to individual election.
The "non-Calvinist understanding" is simply not supported by the grammar. This is classic eisegesis, and you haven't interacted with MacArthur's perfectly reasonable exegesis at all.

The grammar is clear: the direct object of "chosen" is "us". People are chosen, not plans, not Christ, not amorphous groups, but "us". Same for verses 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, etc.

Cheers,
Bob
Hi Bob,

You are correct that the direct object of "chosen" is "us." However it is the "us" that the Calvinist is incorrect about. Let's look at it,

In verse 3-12 Paul uses first person plural personal pronouns, us, we, and our. In verse 13-14 Paul switches to second person personal pronouns, you and your.

Ephesians 1:3-14 ( KJV ) 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

As we read we see Paul is referencing two different groups of people. Of the one group He says we and of the other He says you. Paul includes Himself in the first group where He says we. The first person plural pronouns apply to the group in which Paul includes Himself. This is also the group which has been chosen, has the adoption, is to the praise of His glory, etc. Notice Paul ends this statement with The phrase "who first trusted in Christ," this would be the Jews. they were the ones who first trusted in Christ. Notice in verse 13 Paul switches His attention to the Gentiles when He says " and ye also", He is no longer talking about the "us or we group" He is now speaking about the other group, the, "you and your " group. In which He says "in whom ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation." So we see the group that Paul was in (the Jews) first trusted in Christ and that the second group (the Gentiles) trusted in Christ after they heard the gospel.

As further evidence that this first group is the Jews, consider Romans 9:1-5

Romans 9:1-5 ( KJV ) 1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice the list that pertains to the Israelites, Paul doesn't mention anything about Gentiles here. And, so there is no confusion, Paul explicitly says "whose are the fathers." I think this makes it clear that Paul is referring to the Jews in Eph.1:3-12.

Butch

Here is a more in depth article explaining this.

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

_bshow
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Macarthur's Commentary on Ephesians 1:4

Post by _bshow » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:44 am

Butch5 wrote: Hi Bob,

You are correct that the direct object of "chosen" is "us." However it is the "us" that the Calvinist is incorrect about. Let's look at it,

...

Here is a more in depth article explaining this.

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf
Hi Butch,

I would like to interact with this in more detail, but I'll need time to study the pdf, as it's 29 pages.

I have two quick observations:

1) This is *totally* different from Darin's non-Calvinist interpretation and Homer's non-Calvinist interpretation. Does it grant that the "us" of vv. 1-12 are the recipients of individual election unto salvation? Darin and Homer would presumably recoil at such a thought.

2) It seems reasonable that "we who were first to trust in the gospel" would exclude Paul's Ephesian readers, the "ye also" group. But it seems v. 14 wraps both these groups into the those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit, the earnest of "our" (both "us" and "ye"; cf. vv. 11, 13) inheritance. So I'm not convinced that the line between the two groups is as sharp as you make it.

Given that, I don't see how this mitigates against MacArthur or any Calvinist interpretation of this passage.

Cheers,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

__id_2632
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Macarthur's Commentary on Ephesians 1:4

Post by __id_2632 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:12 pm

bshow1 wrote:
Butch5 wrote: Hi Bob,

You are correct that the direct object of "chosen" is "us." However it is the "us" that the Calvinist is incorrect about. Let's look at it,

...

Here is a more in depth article explaining this.

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf
Hi Butch,

I would like to interact with this in more detail, but I'll need time to study the pdf, as it's 29 pages.

I have two quick observations:

1) This is *totally* different from Darin's non-Calvinist interpretation and Homer's non-Calvinist interpretation. Does it grant that the "us" of vv. 1-12 are the recipients of individual election unto salvation? Darin and Homer would presumably recoil at such a thought.

2) It seems reasonable that "we who were first to trust in the gospel" would exclude Paul's Ephesian readers, the "ye also" group. But it seems v. 14 wraps both these groups into the those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit, the earnest of "our" (both "us" and "ye"; cf. vv. 11, 13) inheritance. So I'm not convinced that the line between the two groups is as sharp as you make it.

Given that, I don't see how this mitigates against MacArthur or any Calvinist interpretation of this passage.

Cheers,
Bob
Bob---1) This is *totally* different from Darin's non-Calvinist interpretation and Homer's non-Calvinist interpretation. Does it grant that the "us" of vv. 1-12 are the recipients of individual election unto salvation? Darin and Homer would presumably recoil at such a thought.
I would say no, because if it did then all Israel would be saved, because Israel is His chosen people. Paul clearly says that only a remnant will be saved. Therefore I would say that this refers to Israel as a nation. One of the major themes is, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. I think this falls within those lines Paul is making a distinction between Jew and Gentile here. All of the statements in those verses Pertained to the Jew as a nation, however only those who trusted in God received them.
Bob---2) It seems reasonable that "we who were first to trust in the gospel" would exclude Paul's Ephesian readers, the "ye also" group. But it seems v. 14 wraps both these groups into the those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit, the earnest of "our" (both "us" and "ye"; cf. vv. 11, 13) inheritance. So I'm not convinced that the line between the two groups is as sharp as you make it.
Correct, I would agree that the Ephesians were excluded on the basis of election. However Paul quickly includes them one the basis of "belief in the truth," the gospel.
Bob---Given that, I don't see how this mitigates against MacArthur or any Calvinist interpretation of this passage.
Because it limits the elect to the Jews only, Paul has excluded the Gentiles from this group that He calls chosen form the foundation of the world. You are correct that Paul bring the two together (believing Jews and Believing Gentiles)in verse 14 where He says "our".
Butch
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

__id_2674
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Post by __id_2674 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:36 am

Darin,

He clearly was lifted up. He does draw all men to Himself -- not all respond because "draw" doesn't mean the irresistible force he suggests it does.

I do believe scripture informing scripture bears out all will respond to him.
For EVERY KNEE WILL BOW and EVERY TOUNGE WILL CONFESS.
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

My little plug for Ur.

I went to Mcarthurs shool for only 1 semester years ago and listened to him on limited atonement. I about puked when I heard it. To this day they have not convinced me of their views and I've left the arminian camp. What am I to doo? : )

I find this appeal to mystery and the resolve of Dont commit isogesis if you find a tension, mystery or paradox, just accept it.

THIS IS A HUGE CULTIC PRINCIPAL BEING ENDORSED.

When dialouging with Mormons and you stumble across a doctrinal issue which is clearly misunderstood the first notion is to turn to mystery and JUST accept it.

NEVERMIND that you might be misunderstanding it.

This is exactly my feelings on calvinism.

That is Just accept means IT"S RIGHT and so just buy it.
Muslims can say that. Mormons can say that. JW's can say that..SO WHAT.

The point is does calvinism have it right.

For them they can push logic on mormons and then use the same EJECT BUTTON mormons use when approached with an illogic...."UH IT'S THE TRUTH SO STOP MAKING THE BIBLE SAY WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY".

Sad but true, we protestants are hardly any better than our counterparts. We employ the very practices we condemn like pharisees.

Aug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

__id_2618
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Post by __id_2618 » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:53 pm

The grammar is clear: the direct object of "chosen" is "us". People are chosen, not plans, not Christ, not amorphous groups, but "us". Same for verses 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, etc.


This objection to the non-calvinist view of election is nothing more than hypothetical. The essential point of the doctrine of corporate election is that God's choice of us is "in Him, Christ." Yes, God does in fact choose us, [us being the grammatical object in Eph 1:4], but this is a contingent choice, conditioned on the obvious-- that we are "in Christ" by faith. Thus, the non-calvinist can both do justice to the grammar of Eph 1 and highlight the importance of the phrase "in Him [or the like]" that is such a repetitive occurance throughout the great chapter of Ephesians 1. The biblical view of election is Christocentric, primarily corporate i.e. God corporately chose the body of Christ [which is a corporate entity] , and only individual or particular secondarily conditioned on faith.

The "non-Calvinist understanding" is simply not supported by the grammar. This is classic eisegesis.

Nice manuever, but your conclusion does not flow from your premise, because the premise is wrong. You can try again though, friend. 8)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

_bshow
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Post by _bshow » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:43 pm

Troy C wrote:The grammar is clear: the direct object of "chosen" is "us". People are chosen, not plans, not Christ, not amorphous groups, but "us". Same for verses 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, etc.


This objection to the non-calvinist view of election is nothing more than hypothetical. The essential point of the doctrine of corporate election is that God's choice of us is "in Him, Christ." Yes, God does in fact choose us, [us being the grammatical object in Eph 1:4], but this is a contingent choice, conditioned on the obvious-- that we are "in Christ" by faith.
Wrong. "In Him" does not indicate contigency. Where is your exegesis of the actual passage that indicates this contingency? Where is faith even in view in 1:4?

I'm now having to counter three completely different "non-Calvinist" interpretations:

1) I'm wrong about the object of election (Darin).

2) I'm right about the object of election, but fail to see that it is contingent (you).

3) I'm right about the object of election, but I don't understand who "us" is (Butch).

Just as with Acts 13:48, you guys can't agree on what it *does* mean, only on what it *cannot be allowed* to mean. Hmm....
Troy C wrote:Thus, the non-calvinist can both do justice to the grammar of Eph 1 and highlight the importance of the phrase "in Him [or the like]" that is such a repetitive occurance throughout the great chapter of Ephesians 1. The biblical view of election is Christocentric, primarily corporate i.e. God corporately chose the body of Christ [which is a corporate entity] , and only individual or particular secondarily conditioned on faith.
Where is "body of Christ" in 1:4? Where is "conditioned on faith" (or on anything for that matter?) This is why I accuse you of eisegesis, because you import your prior philosophical commitment into the passage and reinterpret it in light of the passage, without grammatical support *in the passage itself.*
Troy C wrote: The "non-Calvinist understanding" is simply not supported by the grammar. This is classic eisegesis.

Nice manuever, but your conclusion does not flow from your premise, because the premise is wrong. You can try again though, friend. 8)
Cheers,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

Post Reply

Return to “Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism”