Could you minister in a Church like this....

[Guest]

A question for you Arminians out there (those who believe that one can potentially walk away from the faith):

Could you be an elder (pastor) in a Church where all the other elders (pastors) held to once saved always saved? To clarify, it would be fine for you to believe as you do (and maybe express it to others if they asked), but the teaching from the pulpit would be OSAS (while not necessarily being a pet peeve doctrine).

Would your conscience allow you hold such a leadership position with such men?

Thanks.
Brian

[Guest]

A question for you Arminians out there (those who believe that one can potentially walk away from the faith):

Could you be an elder (pastor) in a Church where all the other elders (pastors) held to once saved always saved? To clarify, it would be fine for you to believe as you do (and maybe express it to others if they asked), but the teaching from the pulpit would be OSAS (while not necessarily being a pet peeve doctrine).

Would your conscience allow you hold such a leadership position with such men?

Thanks.
Brian

Hi Brian,

I haven't spoken to you in a while, I am struggling with a similar situation. We are going to a Baptist church which teaches OSAS It bothers me because I feel like I am sanctioning this teaching. I think OSAS is a very dangerous teaching and I struggle with the thought, should I stay in this church or go?

[Guest]

That (alone) would not in the least prevent me from serving as an elder in a church (note I said "serve" and not "be" as I don't jive with the need for structural leadership, per se).

I don't think doctrinal purity is necessary nor is this an essential to the faith. I disagree with it, and would try to influence my fellow elders, but wouldn't have a problem serving together.

I think the Calvinists are more likely to be (and have proven to be) more into such doctrinal purity. I declined a ministry opportunity because the pastor of a new church plant was requiring such doctrinal purity in his eldership. It wasn't a "denominational thing" but the Acts 29 "network" he hooked up with actually had a "requirement" to receive funds that the eldership be "reformed" (pass a "test", actually) and that the church tithe to other church plants. Sure sounds like a denomination to me !!!!

Leadership
Who leads Acts 29?
In Acts 29 there are four categories of involvement: Acts 29 churches, Acts 29 board, Acts 29 leadership teams, and Acts 29 strategic partners.

#1 – Acts 29 Local Church Elders
Churches planted from within the Acts 29 network are expected to agree to the doctrine and mission of our network. Additionally, they give 10% of their general tithes and offerings toward church planting as their primary means of mission. This money is not sent into Acts 29, but rather distributed by the elders in a local church directly to the church planter(s) that they decide to assist, who will likewise be Acts 29 church planting churches. Acts 29 does assess church planting candidates and provide recommendations to the local church elders but it is ultimately the decision of the Acts 29 local church elders to approve church planters and fund them.

[Guest]

I can see both sides to the dilemma. Notice what 1 Timothy 4 says:

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

It ties being a good minister of Jesus Christ to instructing others that apostasy (departing from the faith) is a reality. The elders in the hypothetical Church that I referred to would not be teaching this from the pulpit. And neither would you because, as I said, you can hold your view of apostasy privately and in some conversations with others, but cannot directly teach it to the congregation. If you are not permitted to do this, can you still call yourself a good minister of Jesus Christ?

I see Butch's point that by staying silent you may be sanctioning (and harming) the congregation. Yet, as Darin observes, belief in OSAS is not heresy and many Godly men and women embrace it.

Darin, where did that Acts 29 Church end up planting? It's too bad they are so adamant about Reformed doctrine. You need to be at least a 4 point Calvinist (I'm told there is some wiggle room on limited atonement) to plant with them.

Brian

[Guest]

Darin, where did that Acts 29 Church end up planting? It's too bad they are so adamant about Reformed doctrine. You need to be at least a 4 point Calvinist (I'm told there is some wiggle room on limited atonement) to plant with them.

San Antonio -- I also didn't agree completely with their "vision" as I was looking for something more "organic" and "reproducible." They weren't interested in being a "mega-church," but did want to create a network of smaller "conventional" churches with all the glitz and "production-qualities."

These are GREAT guys with a great passion for Christ and His service -- it is just REALLY hard for some people to let go of convention and modern tradition. I know they'll do good things for Christ whatever the venue, but it's so disappointing to be so close to something that could be great for the Lord and fall just short.

[Guest]

I can see both sides to the dilemma. Notice what 1 Timothy 4 says:

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

It ties being a good minister of Jesus Christ to instructing others that apostasy (departing from the faith) is a reality. The elders in the hypothetical Church that I referred to would not be teaching this from the pulpit. And neither would you because, as I said, you can hold your view of apostasy privately and in some conversations with others, but cannot directly teach it to the congregation. If you are not permitted to do this, can you still call yourself a good minister of Jesus Christ?

I see Butch's point that by staying silent you may be sanctioning (and harming) the congregation. Yet, as Darin observes, belief in OSAS is not heresy and many Godly men and women embrace it.

Darin, where did that Acts 29 Church end up planting? It's too bad they are so adamant about Reformed doctrine. You need to be at least a 4 point Calvinist (I'm told there is some wiggle room on limited atonement) to plant with them.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I think OSAS is heresy. If the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost, then OSAS is a false doctrine. As I said I think it is a very dangerous doctrine. When I was a Calvinist, I did not live as I should have, because I thought, I know I shouldn't do this or that, but, if I do, I won't lose my salvation. I was told that it would just affect my fellowship with the Lord. Since I have come to understand the Scriptures and realise that salvation can indeed be lost, I look back and hope that God will forgive me. I think it is a very dangerous place to be, when you think God is obligated to save you because you said a prayer.

I know plenty of Christians who do not live the way the should, and most of them believe in OSAS. They believe their sin will just interrupt their fellowship with God.

[Guest]

I think OSAS is heresy. If the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost, then OSAS is a false doctrine. As I said I think it is a very dangerous doctrine.

Of course, almost any doctrine can be "dangerous" if carried to a particular extreme.

[Guest]

Brian-

do these other OSAS-ers know your position? are they still willing to consider you in a leadership role?

TK

[Guest]

I think OSAS is heresy. If the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost, then OSAS is a false doctrine. As I said I think it is a very dangerous doctrine.

Of course, almost any doctrine can be "dangerous" if carried to a particular extreme.

But I'm not talking about doctrine, I'm talking about false doctrine.

[Guest]

TK,

It is a Church that I'm considering going back to. They were aware of my convictions and knew of my desire to help lead and teach. I could believe that OSAS is false, but I would probably not be able to teach this with conviction.

I would have to concede to the fact that the Church doctrine (and other teachers in the movement at large) would be pro OSAS.

Brian