The Narrow Path Ministries

We have discussed at length whether regeneration precedes faith. It appears to me that most believe regeneration is an instantaneous act of God, yet that appears not to have been the belief of the ancient Church, who evidently saw regeneration as a process.

We use the word a lot, but it is used only twice in scripture, in Matthew 19:28, where it has a clear reference to end-times, and in reference to persons in Titus 3:5:

Titus 3:5 (New King James Version)

5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

The early Christians appear to have uniformly seen this as a baptismal passage, baptism being seen as the final act in the process of regeneration. The Greek fathers referred to baptism as teliosis, i.e. "the consummation" of this process. Whether they are correct or not, there is little room for doubt that they used baptism and regeneration synonymously.

Consider the word regeneration:

Strong's Number: 3824 paliggenesiða
Original Word Word Origin
paliggenesiða from (3825) and (1078)
Definition:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death
the renovation of the earth after the deluge
the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught
the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.
other uses
of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile
of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile
of the recovery of knowledge by recollection


As can be easily seen from the definition, the word can refer to a process, and repentance can be included in the process.

We assume the word "born", used most prominently by John, is a synonym for regeneration:

Strong's Number: 1080 genna/w
Original Word Word Origin
genna/w from a variation of (1085)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Gennao ghen-nah'-o
Definition
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

Translated Words
KJV (97) - be born, 39; be delivered, 1; bear, 2; begat, 49; bring forth, 1; gender, 2; misc, 3;
NAS (96) - Child, 1; Father, 1; bear, 1; bearing children, 1; became the father of, 4; became...father, 1; begotten, 4; bore, 1; born, 41; conceived, 1; father, 37; gave, 1; gives birth, 1; produce, 1;


As we can see, gennao is used of the father's role in a child being born as it is with the mother who gives birth. But this is a description of a process. A child is first conceived, there is gestation period, and then the child is born. The child is alive all through the process, yet it is unable to enjoy that life until birth. Since gennao is used as a metaphor for regeneration, by what logic do we assume regeneration is an instantaneous act and not a process that might include hearing and believing, repentance, and baptism? The Apostle Paul seems to think hearing the gospel plays a role in the process:


1 Corinthians 4:15 (New King James Version)

15. For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten (gennao) you through the gospel.


The earliest Christians explicitely linked the new birth, or regeneration, to remission of sins, placing trust in His name, faith, and baptism.

Some questions:

Where in scripture is there proof that regeneration is an instantaneous act of God?

Is the regenerated person forgiven of his/her sins immediately upon being renewed?

Does the person who has this "new life" have eternal life, or not?

Can it be shown from scripture that the ancient church was wrong to regard regeneration to be a process?

Arguments about regeneration preceding faith, such as John 5:1, fall apart if regeneration is a process and not an instantaneous act.

Homer, you have struck the nail squarely.

The word "regeneration" is most commonly applied to an act of God that is deemed necessary because the concept of total hereditary depravity has been accepted without question.

It seems to me that regeneration is about being made clean or being made new. To be regenerated is to be forgiven.

Where in the "process" does the child decide to be born?

Does the "idea" of a child decide that it "wants to be" there for the father and mother conceive the idea thus begetting a child?

The very reason the apostle used this analogy is to show it is not of the man willing but of God.

Homer, you still can't get around 1 John 5:1. John uses temporal language which again shows that God fathers thus belief.

A person with a concordance without the knowledge of Greek and syntax is like a child with a loaded gun.

J.Edwards,

I am pressed for time but will reply later to your remarks about 1 John 5:1.
John, I believe, had nothing more in mind than defining who were true believers and who were pretenders. He was discussing who had a present, ongoing faith, among other things.

You wrote:

Does the "idea" of a child decide that it "wants to be" there for the father and mother conceive the idea thus begetting a child?

The very reason the apostle used this analogy is to show it is not of the man willing but of God.

These comments are totally irrelevant; the analogy can only be pressed so far. Can a natural born child live without either or both parents? Absolutely yes! Can a person reborn spiritually continue that life apart from the Father? Absolutely no!

A person with a concordance without the knowledge of Greek and syntax is like a child with a loaded gun.

And so are some who are so wrapped up in it they can not see the bigger picture. I have noticed that even many Calvinists who comment on 1 John 5:1 admit that it can not be used to support Calvinism.

I noticed that you are avoiding my questions, as those of Sean have been avoided.

I believe, had nothing more in mind than defining who were true believers and who were pretenders. He was discussing who had a present, ongoing faith, among other things.

What John had in mind was conveying meaning by using words and syntax in a VERY concise way. I have scripture say what it means. You avoid the verse.

Can a natural born child live without either or both parents? Absolutely yes! Can a person reborn spiritually continue that life apart from the Father? Absolutely no!

I have never seen a new born baby survive without someone taking care of it. It would die without nourishment. So you are incorrect and the analogy stands.

Homer,

A person with a concordance without the knowledge of Greek and syntax is like a child with a loaded gun.

This was an unloving statement and was not Christlike. Please forgive me.

"J.Edwards"]Homer, you still can't get around 1 John 5:1. John uses temporal language which again shows that God fathers thus belief.

Hi John Edwards,

I just recently finished debating an individual on this very verse. There is nothing in this verse that gives a time frame as to which comes first,, believing or being born again. Therefore it cannot be used to support the idea that regeneration precedes faith. If you want to prove that regeneration precedes faith you will need to use other Scriptures.

Butch

What you said doesn't mean anything. I just got done debating someone on this issue also and did not find anything that changes what John said.

Can you explain why John didn't use the present tense for γεγέννηται ?

J.Edwards,

You apology is accepted. I noticed that John Piper is your pastor. I assume you are Reformed Baptist. Since you have great knowledge of the Greek, go for the exact meaning of the words, and abhor eisigesis, I am most interested in your explanation of the meaning of the word eis in the following statement:

Acts 2:38 (New King James Version)

38. Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

God bless, Homer

Homer,
No problem, it might take a day or so since I have never arced and diagrammed this verse before. I have to look up the syntactical relations to the cases. πρὸς to, ἐπὶ has eight different meanings depending on case, and εἰς is tricky depending on case and construct.

Also these are governed by the syntax and grammar and mood of the VERBS and the word order NOT of the English but the Greek.