Can God know the Future?

[Suzana]

Of course, you can say that the prophecy was conditional and that God really meant: "Unless you repent, Ninevah will be destroyed in 40 days". But that won't do! For God Himself declared that He had intended to destroy Ninevah ---- to bring evil upon the city.

... If the prophecy had been conditional, there would have been no change of mind. Rather God's mind would have been unchanged....

How is this any different than Jeremiah? -

Jeremiah 18:7-11 (KJV) 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

If God has pronounced, made a declaration against a nation, that it will be destroyed - this also sounds absolute - and yet God himself plainly states the conditions attached, and yet uses the same word here as with Jonah, meaning repent or change of mind.

[Paidion]

Actually, the passage you quoted strongly lends further support for my position:

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. NRSV

This too, is not a conditional prophecy. Rather God shows that He responds to people's free will choices. If it were a conditional prophecy, then God wouldn't be changing His mind. He would be carrying out what He intended to do all along.

In the first instance, the fact that God would CHANGE HIS MIND about the disaster He had INTENDED to do a nation strongly suggests that He had not known that nation would repent. If He had known it, He would not have CHANGED HIS MIND. He would never have had the intention to bring disaster upon it in the first place.

IN he second instance, the fact that God would CHANGE HIS MIND about His INTENTION to build up a nation, strongly suggests that He didn't know that that nation would turn to evil and rebellion. If He had known it, He would not have CHANGED HIS MIND. He would never have had the intention to build up that nation in the first place.

[Suzana]

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. NRSV

This too, is not a conditional prophecy. Rather God shows that He responds to people's free will choices. If it were a conditional prophecy, then God wouldn't be changing His mind. He would be carrying out what He intended to do all along.

I agree this is not a prophecy. It’s God setting out the rules of the game, so to speak.
Which He would have to do, whether He knew the future or not, otherwise we would not know what’s expected of us, or be accountable for the consequences.

If God did know that Ninevah would repent, then He didn't have any predictive powers at all! He had knowledge

I agree. God has knowledge. If He had merely been using predictive powers, He was having an off day, thinking they wouldn’t be repenting, & predicting their downfall.

However, if He had knowledge then there was no reason for Him to declare that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days. Indeed, if He knew that they would repent, and that He wouldn't destroy the city, then He lied by saying through Jonah that He would.

There was reason. God said to Jonah : 1:2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before Me.”

God warning them of coming judgement - the consequence of their way of life - was the means to bring them to repentance & thus avert disaster.
It’s not a lie if it is a warning of impending doom so that they have a chance to do something about it.

When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. Jonah 3:10 NASB

Notice it says only that God declared that He would bring upon them this calamity. That doesn't sound conditional to me. It sounds absolute.

If it is absolute, and not conditional, doesn’t it then make God’s declaration a lie, since He didn’t follow through?
And God doesn’t lie.

“Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Paidion, what are your thoughts regarding this verse?

My comment was that Jonah himself seems to have understood that God was sending him to preach to Ninevah, (with a specified a time frame – 40 days, in which they would have a chance to repent if they chose to), which is why he complained to God, as above, after the Ninevites repented.

[Paidion]

If it is absolute, and not conditional, doesn’t it then make God’s declaration a lie, since He didn’t follow through?
And God doesn’t lie.

No, it's not a lie if God had thought by examining their minds and hearts, that they would NOT repent, and thus didn't KNOW (in the absolute sense of KNOWING) that they WOULD repent. I believe that to be the case, and that this was the reason that God changed His mind, and didn't bring upon them the calamity which HE SAID HE WOULD DO TO THEM (3:10)

“Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Paidion, what are your thoughts regarding this verse?

I think Jonah was a rather arrogant individual who thought highly of himself. If God wanted him to prophesy, then he wanted the prophecy to come true. If it didn't come true, this would cast aspersion upon himself in the eyes of people. So Jonah explains to Yawheh that this is why he fled to Tarsus because he KNEW that God was merciful and kind, and that He was one who changes His mind about doing harm. So if Jonah gave the prophecy that something would happen and it didn't come true, he, Jonah, would look bad. So the exact thing about which Jonah was concerned, happened! So that's why he sat under the plant and was furious! ---- to the point that he wanted to die!

[Suzana]

Thanks, Paidion.

I seem to recall hearing some good advice - it's good practice to adopt a view that best accounts & makes most sense when interpreting difficult passages or concepts (difficult in the sense of seemingly contradicting a held view - or something like that, I don't recall the exact wording), in light of the overall biblical teaching.
I would find it extremely difficult to accept as true your idea that

...God had thought by examining their minds and hearts, that they would NOT repent,...

- and that God got it wrong. That would not be my idea of an all-wise, all-knowing, omnipotent creator of the universe -

Psalms 147:5 Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. (NASB)

Hebrews 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. (NASB)

1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. (NASB)

[Paidion]

God had thought by examining their minds and hearts, that they would NOT repent,...

- and that God got it wrong. That would not be my idea of an all-wise, all-knowing, omnipotent creator of the universe

That is because you think the future is knowable. Besides God didn't "get it wrong". He made no mistake. He based His prediction upon His perfect knowledge of the Ninevites. But since the Ninevites had free will, they happened to choose repentence, going against everything that the state of their hearts would lead one to believe that they would do.

The future is not knowable, because it doesn't exist. Can God know what doesn't exist? Can God (or anyone else) know that I am now in Winnipeg, Manitoba? No, because that is contrary to present reality. He can't know it , because I am not there. Can God (or anyone else) know that I will raise my hand in 15 minutes? No, because that is contrary to present reality. In 15 minutes I can choose whether or not to raise my hand. That choice has not been made. Therefore, it cannot be known.

If we assume that future choices can be known, we are faced with a contradiction:

1. If it is known that I will raise my hand in 15 minutes, then I cannot refrain from raising my hand at that time. For if I do refrain from raising my hand in 15 minutes, then it was not known that I will raise it!

2. If it is known that I will not raise my hand in 15 minutes, then I cannot raise my hand at that time. For if I do raise my hand in 15 minutes, then it was not known that I will refrain from raising it!

3. Either I will raise my hand in 15 minutes or I will not raise it in 15 minutes.

4. Therefore either I cannot refrain form raising my hand in 15 minutes or I cannot raise my hand in 15 minutes.

5. In either case there is something I cannot do.

6. Therefore I do not have the power of choice to either raise my hand in 15 minutes or refrain from raising it at that time.

7. But I do have the power of choice to either raise it in 15 minutes or refrain from raising it.

8. Conclusion: It cannot be known in advance whether or not I raise my hand in 15 minutes or refrain from raising it in 15 minutes.

To say that God does not know the unknowable in no way denies His omniscience. He knows everything that is logically possible to know.

Can God create a rock so large that He cannot lift it? The obvious answer is "no". For if He could create such a rock, then there would be something He cannot do --- namely, lift the rock.

God is omnipotent. He can do anything He chooses to do. Denying that He can create such a rock in no way denies His omnipotence. Similarly, denying that He can know the unknowable in no way denies His omniscience.

There are a number of Biblical instances in which God seemingly did not know the future, since things didn't turn out as He expected. However, there are far more cases where things did turn out as He expected. Perhaps the latter fact is the reason some people think God can know the future. But it's not because He knows the future that His expectations turn out to be true. Rather it because He is a perfect predictor. He knows all the thoughts and intents of the hearts of all people. To a much lesser degree, we too can predict what people will choose, and our predictions often turn out to be reality. For example, when my oldest son was 3 years old, I would be able to predict with confidence that if I had said to him, "Jamie, come here", that he would come immediately. But that doesn't mean that I knew he would come. He may have chosen to go contrary to his usual behaviour and refuse to come. Now of course, I didn't know everything about Jamie, as God does. So God would be in a much better position to predict Jamie's behaviour.

We have free will because we have been created in God's image. Obviously we can come against God's will. Mankind has opposed God for millenniums. But God, who is both omniscient and omnipotent can still fulfill His ultimate purposes, working man's free will into the whole equation. This is the glorious thing about the mighty God.

A master chess player doesn't know what individual moves his opponent will make, but he will still win, because he knows how to respond no matter what moves his opponent chooses. So it is with God. He knows what to do no matter what moves individual people make, and no matter how contrary to His will these moves are --- and God, like the master chess player, will win out in the end!

[Jill]

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[Suzana]

...Besides God didn't "get it wrong". He made no mistake. He based His prediction upon His perfect knowledge of the Ninevites. But since the Ninevites had free will, they happened to choose repentence, going against everything that the state of their hearts would lead one to believe that they would do.
....There are a number of Biblical instances in which God seemingly did not know the future, since things didn't turn out as He expected. However, there are far more cases where things did turn out as He expected. Perhaps the latter fact is the reason some people think God can know the future. But it's not because He knows the future that His expectations turn out to be true. Rather it because He is a perfect predictor.

Well, that's just it. If your view is correct, God is actually NOT a PERFECT predictor.
If He sometimes guesses wrong, there is then room for improvement. So obviously God hasn't reached perfection yet!

About your raising your hand - either I have a really bad case of deja-vu, or we have discussed this before - and I still have a problem following that logic.

How about we change your wording a little bit:

If we assume that future choices can be known, are we faced with a contradiction?

1. If it is known that I will raise my hand in 15 minutes, then I will not refrain from raising my hand at that time. For if I do refrain from raising my hand in 15 minutes, then it was not known that I will raise it! (naturally. in that case it would have been known that you will NOT raise it).

2. If it is known that I will not raise my hand in 15 minutes, then I would not raise my hand at that time. For if I do raise my hand in 15 minutes, then it would have been known that I will not refrain from raising it!

3. Either I will raise my hand in 15 minutes or I will not raise it in 15 minutes.

4. Therefore either I will not refrain form raising my hand in 15 minutes or I will not raise my hand in 15 minutes.

5. In either case there is something I will not do.

6. I have the power of choice to either raise my hand in 15 minutes or refrain from raising it at that time.

7. Whichever choice I make, will be the one that God will know about. But it's still my choice.

8. Conclusion: I make the choice whether or not I raise my hand in 15 minutes or refrain from raising it in 15 minutes.

I don't see any contradiction.

Paidion, I didn't mangle your examples with any offensive intent - but I honestly CANNOT understand the logic of your argument. It may follow some rigid rules of formal logic, but practically it doesn't make any SENSE to me.

- I have a choice between an apple and a banana. I choose banana.
- God knew the choice I would make, and let's say He told this to my son yesterday for some reason.
- Today, it's not that I CANNOT choose the apple, it's that I DID NOT. Because God knew I would choose a banana, that's what He told my son.
- IT WAS MY CHOICE. If Ichoose the apple, God would have known that, and told my son.
It is still my choice.

How does this foreknowledge take away my choice? It's my choice that provided the facts.

It seems a perfectly simple concept to me, and not contradictory at all.

[TK]

I feel your pain, Suzana. Paidion has twisted my mind (not in bad way) on this topic on numerous occasions.

i think the point is simply if God KNOWS now (and his foreknowledge is perfect) that you will choose a banana over an apple tomorrown, then you really have no choice in the matter. it may FEEL like you have a choice, but you don't. how could you be free to choose a banana over an apple if God knew in advance you would choose an apple?

I used to try to argue that because God is God that we can have true free will and and God can still have perfect foreknowledge. my debates with paidion have made me realize that that is indeed like saying God can make round squares or make 2 + 2 = something other than 4.

still, i am squeamish about saying some things are unknowable to God. I can't get my mind around that , yet. but i CAN see how omnipotence doesnt mean God can do everything, like Paidion's stone example or my examples above. Further, God might intentionally limit Himself in some ways, which I suppose he has the right to do.

TK

[darinhouston]

I've been watching way too much "LOST" lately to engage in this conversation.