the extent of God's determining

[alastairblake]

This was posted as a reply to something on a board, and I wondered what you all thought of this presentation.

I do not believe that God claims in scripture to be making everything that comes to pass his active doing. I believe he can ordain the ends, and leave the means at times in the will of man. I think God drives the bus, but the passengers can love or hate, punch or hug while the bus gets to its final destination. what are your thoughts board?

Alastair.

"I am certain that this is a definite misreading of the teachings of historic Calvinism. As the Westminster Confession states: “God the great Creator of all things upholds, directs, disposes, and governs all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.”

Prov. 16:9- In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD determines their steps.

Eph. 1:11- “[God] brings about everything according to the perfect counsel of His will.”
And Calvin himself said, “By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man.” (and this was not meant as simply referring to salvation itself)

The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Abstract Principles also contain the historic teaching of Calvin: “God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.”

Belgic Confession article 13: “We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement.
Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.”

According to Calvin (and I would say Scripture), everything that happens occurs because God has specifically ordained it to occur, either causing it to happen directly or allowing it to happen (as in the case of sin) for the purposes of His ultimate glorification. He is not the author of sin, but only allows sin to occur for His ultimate purposes. It is a much more involved process than a more passive guidance.
"

[RICHinCHRIST]

Hi Alistair. It seems to me that Calvinists are logically inconsistent when they try to answer this question. Much of reformed theology is consistent, and is folded like a neatly folded sweater. But when you bring up the question of whether God ordains evil or not, Calvinists try to say yes and no at the same time. They contradict themselves and think that their contradictions are good enough answers to these types of questions. When they realize how terrible their theology sounds, they resort to the mantra: "It's a mystery!"

Consider the first three quotes of the response:

"I am certain that this is a definite misreading of the teachings of historic Calvinism. As the Westminster Confession states: “God the great Creator of all things upholds, directs, disposes, and governs all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.”

Prov. 16:9- In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD determines their steps.

Eph. 1:11- “[God] brings about everything according to the perfect counsel of His will.”
And Calvin himself said, “By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man.” (and this was not meant as simply referring to salvation itself)

These quotes seem to clearly and unequivocally state that man has no free will but that God pre-ordains all decisions and all circumstances according to His pre-determined plan.

But now, see how they contradict themselves:

The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Abstract Principles also contain the historic teaching of Calvin: “God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.”

This sentence is self-contradictory. They should have said something like this to be logically consistent: "God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs some creatures and some events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures"

You can't say that God governs and directs all events and exclude sinful events, since most of the events of history have been sinful to some degree!

Belgic Confession article 13: “We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement.
Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.”

Now he sounds like a good Arminian. All Arminians agree with this statement (except maybe with the part "nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement"). God certainly has a plan to intervene and right the wrongs that are committed by sinful people. God also has the wisdom and capability to turn evil around for good. This is not the question of meticulous sovereignty. The question is whether God ordains all things that happen (even the choice of sinful people to reject Christ!). If God ordains certain people to reject Christ (even though He could overcome their unbelief if He wanted to), then God is also contributing to the evil of the world... since the greatest sin is to reject Jesus the King! According to Calvinist theology, God does not want to save all people (even though He could--this is clearly the conclusion one must make after understanding Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace).

According to Calvin (and I would say Scripture), everything that happens occurs because God has specifically ordained it to occur, either causing it to happen directly or allowing it to happen (as in the case of sin) for the purposes of His ultimate glorification. He is not the author of sin, but only allows sin to occur for His ultimate purposes..."

This is difficult to follow. So God ordains everything that happens that is not sin? So does that mean that God ordains my neighbor to pay his taxes (even though he might reject Christ and go to hell!)? In other words, God ordains all good things to occur, but He doesn't ordain the bad things. That means that God can ordain certain people to do many good things in their lives, but because He doesn't want to save them He will not cause them to do the very best thing (follow Christ) since He chose for them to be lost before He made the world. What a terrible view of God!

Also, this is contradictory to what Calvin is quoted to have said above. Calvin believed that all things, including sin, were ordained of God:

"Again they object: were they not previously predestined by God’s
ordinance to that corruption which is now claimed as the cause of
condemnation? When, therefore, they perish in their corruption, they
but pay the penalties of that misery in which Adam fell by the
predestination of God, and dragged his posterity headlong after him.
Is he not, then, unjust who so cruelly deludes his creatures? Of
course, I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now
bound, all of Adam’s children have fallen by God’s will. And this is
what I said to begin with, that we must always at last return to the
sole decision of God’s will, the cause of which is hidden in him."
(Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3:23.4)

"Still, it is not in itself likely that man brought destruction upon
himself through himself, by God’s mere permission and without any
ordaining. As if God did not establish the condition in which he wills
the chief of his creatures [Adam] to be! . . . For the first man fell
because the Lord had judged it to be expedient; why he so judged is
hidden from us. Yet it is certain that he so judged because he saw
that thereby the glory of his name is duly revealed." (3:23.8)

Modern Calvinists have realized how repulsive this theology is. They have now begun to alter what Calvin originally said so it is more palpable. They haven't become Arminians yet, but they are in a state of friction where they are not true Calvinists either, but rather fall into a category of logical contradiction and confusion.

"...It is a much more involved process than a more passive guidance."

So Arminians think that God is not involved? Huh? God is "passive" according to Arminians? I think God is passive according to Calvinism! After all, God basically programmed His robot creatures to do all the things He meant for them to do from the beginning! God is just watching the movie play out according to Calvinism! God doesn't have to be involved if He ordained everything to occur... for who can resist His will, right?

But if people CAN resist His will.. then God has to be involved. Then God has to intervene and act in His created order in order to repair what man has corrupted through sin. God has to work circumstances out for His glory's sake as well as the good of His creatures.

I like the way Greg Boyd describes these things (which makes me attracted to his position of Open Theism):
Suppose God was playing chess against someone. In Calvinism, God would have programmed his opponent's moves, so of course God would always win. In Arminianism, God would foreknow what the moves would be, so God would have to react to each move as it would come even though he knew what He'd have to do in advance in order to win. But in open theism, God knows every single possible move the opponent could make and has to choose an alternate course for every move (even though He doesn't know which move will be chosen). You can see the progression of the intelligence of God. Calvinism seems to present a much less intelligent God, whereas Arminianism has a slightly smarter one... whereas Openness has the most intelligent representation of His Mind. I would like to find a balance between all-out Open Theism and God foreknowing certain events in the Bible. As of now, I have not accepted Open Theism yet, but am open to it. This is because I find it difficult to shake off the many biblical examples where God clearly knows the future decisions of certain people.

I was going to answer the Scriptures he presented directly, but I have to retire now. Perhaps someone else will consider those passages and give you a more exegetical response (Prov. 16:9, Eph. 1:11, etc.).

[alastairblake]

rich, thank you!

[alastairblake]

and here is an update:

The issue is not whether anyone thinks Calvinists have perverted the word sovereign or not, but whether Scripture actually teaches if God controls everything or not. Apparently He “micromanages” everything, including the death of sparrows (Matt 10:29), the outcome of casting of lots (Prov. 16:33), who will receive salvation (Rom. 9:11-24, Eph. 1:3-14, John 6:65, Acts 13:48), when disasters occur in cities (Amos 3:6), the exact time when each individual person will die (Job 14:5), what each person does in their life (Prov. 16:9), etc, etc.

I actually think this is the basic point of all Scripture:
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?
-Daniel 4:34-35.

God does exactly what He wants with every person, so that His plans would be fulfilled. And He is a just and righteous God in all that He does.

11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:11-24)

[Homer]

In our opposition to Calvinism we must not "throw the baby out with the bath water" regarding God's sovereignty.

Matthew 10:28-31
New King James Version (NKJV)

28. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29. Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

In Matthew 10 Jesus is assuring the Twelve of God's care over them as He sends them out to evangelize. He assures them that as God superintends the fate of the sparrows, the Twelve are worth much more than sparrows, so they can be sure God has them in His care. If God does not at least have a veto over the fate of sparrows then Jesus' assurance would be false. This does not eliminate free-will. God can simply let us do as we wish, or intervene as He pleases.

I have difficulty believing open-theism is true; it seems God would be constantly caught by surprise, perhaps billions of times a day. There are a lot of sparrows!

[alastairblake]

hey homer! thanks for sharing that.

I see what you mean in the passage. if the sparrow dying is with God's will, then would that mean God is making it so? since it doesn't happen apart from his will?

[alastairblake]

would that verse be saying that no death happens without God willing it as such?

I guess if someone had a terrible diet, and died from heart disease, then God may agree with his set up natural consequences that gave them death. so I suppose in that way he could be in agreement with consequence without having intervened to bring about death.

thoughts?

[TK]

If God controls everything, i.e. if he is a cosmic micromanager, then He is responsible for the person over-eating and dying of clogged arteries. How could he not be?

I just can't see how such a view glorifies God. What a boring existence!!! Imagine how boring it would be to set up army men (or dominos) and knock them down for all eternity. It might be interesting or fun for a while, but that would wear off rather quickly. No surprises, nothing every new. If God knows just exactly how everything is going to turn out, what fun is there in that?

That being said, I have read the Lord of the Rings books 5 or 6 times, and have seen the movies as many times, but I still enjoy them, despite the fact that I know the books and movies pretty well by now!

TK

[alastairblake]

hey guys, i must apologize, I have been a bit scattered on this post. I have been thinking over these things while at work, and writing when I take a break from my phone, which I think has confused me a bit, only seeing a few sentences at a time, and mixing up who i was reading with other posters etc.

Ill try to get it together more. haha thanks much for weighing in on this.

[Homer]

I think I am being misunderstood somewhat. I wrote:

This does not eliminate free-will. God can simply let us do as we wish, or intervene as He pleases.

Perhaps we can look at it as though God is a "cosmic day care operator". His eye is constantly watching over everything, even the "sparrow", and He intervenes whenever it pleases Him. Otherwise He lets us follow our will and nature take its course. He might intervene often in the affairs of men and less so in the realm of nature; He doesn't seem to interfere with gravity much. On the other hand, I believe He changes the course of events in response to prayer, contrary to Calvinism.

Miracles are talked about way too much in Christian circles and God's providence not so much.