Preacher Worship

[Daniel]

I find that my 5 point Calvinist brothers seem to border on preacher worship.They are constantly lifting up MacArtur,Piper,Sprouls & others.While in the same breath participate in character assassination of teachers who hold to anything less than all 5 points.Billy Graham seems to be at the top of the hit list.

[Michelle]

Hi there, Daniel,

Your remarks are kind of short and may need some elaboration. Here a few questions that have been swirling in my mind lately:

I find that my 5 point Calvinist brothers seem to boarder on preacher worship.

This is an interesting beginning. Bordering (I'm pretty sure this is the word you want, although taking meals and living in the room at the top of the stairs at Preacher Worship Rooming House is awesome imagery) on preacher worship seems to be a gentle way of admonishing those whom you count as brothers (which you do) to be wary of idolatry. You lay this on 5-point Calvinists; do you ever notice this in your Arminian brothers? Do any of them constantly lift up Graham, Hauerwas, Gregg, or others? I think it does happen, and anyone who begins to exalt even great teachers over Christ should be cautioned.

They are constantly lifting up MacArtur,Piper,Sprouls & others.

This is your sole justification for your claim that these men are bordering on preacher worship. What does it mean that they are "constantly lifting up" these teachers? It's got to be more than just quoting them, right? "Lifting up" seems to me to be about exalting them. Are they exalting them to a position of infallibility in their teaching? I'd really love to have more information here.

While in the same breath participate in character assassination of teachers who hold to anything less than all 5 points.Billy Graham seems to be at the top of the hit list.

Wow, character assassination, that's quite a charge, and not a little vague. Who is charging whom with being duplicitous, lack of morality, or corruption in their ministry?

You know, agreeing - very much - with someone's doctrine is not worshipping them, neither is disagreeing - vehemently - character assassination. But perhaps you've seen or heard something that I've not been privy to. Would you being willing to share more about what you've experienced?

[Daniel]

Thank you for the insight Michelle.I sure hope I have not insulted anyone.I do consider 5 point Calvinists my brothers & sisters in Christ.Bordering was the word I was reaching for,as to mean they come close to preacher worship.Of course I do not believe they are idol worshipers & there are exceptions in every group.It is my experience with the 5 point Calvinists that I know,that they seem to admire to the extreme MacArthur,Piper,Sprouls & a handfull of others.Not to mention teachers of the past like Calvin,the Puritans & on & on down the line.I have been blessed by the ministry of Billy Graham.But do not consider it my mission to jam him down anyones throat.Over the course of my life,I have attended church all over the country.I cannot think of a denomination that I have not attended.I have never seen the same level of lifting up,or criticism of those within Christian orthodoxy from non 5 pointers.Graham made some statments that would seem to imply that Christ is not the only way to salvation.I believe they were taken out of context by MacArthur during a sermon,where in he was critical of Graham.Since then I have had two different 5 point Calvinists tell me that Graham is a heretic.For a group that claims to be God centered in their theology,they seem to focus an awful lot on preachers.

[Michelle]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your elaboration. It is sad that some people go off the rails and focus an awful lot on preachers. It is very interesting that you've only seen the same level of lifting up or criticism among 5-point Calvinists. I wonder if there is something about their belief system that makes them be so critical. Since you've attended so many denominations, do you have any insight about why this might be?

[Daniel]

I think there is a combination of reasons.The TULIP is a very defined & strict system of theology.Those who adhere to that system believe that it is God centered & misrepresent anything else to be Man centered or Sub-Christian.Those who are Sub-Christian teachers are basically false teachers & are in need of harsh criticism.The leaders are critical,so the congregation feels like they have the Green light to say what they will about anyone who holds to anything less then all 5 points.

[jriccitelli]

To me Calvinism employs a very cult like redefinition of common words, the words will, choose, repentance, and faith for instance. A common translation of these biblical words into 'any' language would emphasize an action on our part in order for the words to make sense… I still like listening to RC Sproul (probably only because of the famine of deeper bible teaching available on the radio) but I had to almost vomit this past week over Sproul's constant and seemingly admiration, love, and devotion to Calvin, Augustine, and Jonathan Edwards, it as if Sproul was attributing divinity to Edwards on his show this week. I do not find either 'the Theologian' or Edwards all that very enlightening because they were 'wrong'! Proving the axiom true that "There are mistakes only a Theologian could make"
(I wrote the above under the thread 'Ephesians 2:8')

I agree with Daniel and Michelle. From my interactions with Calvinists, is that they tend to view themselves as intellectuals because they study their 'great' theologians (who like Daniel said; possess the 'true' understanding), in much the same way the Catholic church apologists think they have the truth because they use the interpretations of the 'great' church fathers. There is a strong appeal to 'theologian' worship amongst these groups 'because' I do not think you are going to come up with these doctrines simply by reading the Bible on your own.
I see Calvinists as lost among the trees of the forest, and not able to see the forest from a hill.

As an example of man devotion rather than Word devotion; I read a passage just last night in Eusebius who quotes Irenaeus, and it seems clear to me that both had already been influenced by Rome, and both of them were already writing with a tainted affection for 'teachers rather than scripture' alone. Eusebius can be excused for he is trying to provide a history of the church, but 'we' cannot be excused for holding onto a 'Church theologians interpretation' as if it was Gods Word.

[Michelle]

Hello Daniel and jriccitelli,

I can never understand the aggressive posture, especially by those who are most steeped in calvinist doctrine. (I also get puzzled by full-preterists.) On the other hand, I do enjoy listening to, and learning from, many calvinist teachers and writers. I have thought in the past that maybe the young restless and reformed bunch have more young and restless in them which tends to bring on the acrimony. Now I'm not so sure since Piper, MacArthur and Sproul Sr. are all older than I am.

Because jriccitelli mentioned the series, I listened to RC Sproul's programs about Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin. I didn't gag - on the contrary, I'm now motivated to read some of Edwards and to read stuff about him. (Not so much Calvin :])

I'm currently a member of an Alliance church where it seems most sermons, if not all, contain at least one quote from A.B. Simpson, A.W. Tozer, or Ravi Zacharias. To me these just seem like great illustrations from brilliant thinkers and men of God, not something being crammed down my throat. Is this an example, jriccitelli, of "man devotion"? I don't think I hold undue affection for these men; I just think they are more able thinkers than I am.

[darinhouston]

Hello Daniel and jriccitelli,

I can never understand the aggressive posture, especially by those who are most steeped in calvinist doctrine. (I also get puzzled by full-preterists.) On the other hand, I do enjoy listening to, and learning from, many calvinist teachers and writers. I have thought in the past that maybe the young restless and reformed bunch have more young and restless in them which tends to bring on the acrimony. Now I'm not so sure since Piper, MacArthur and Sproul Sr. are all older than I am.

Because jriccitelli mentioned the series, I listened to RC Sproul's programs about Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin. I didn't gag - on the contrary, I'm now motivated to read some of Edwards and to read stuff about him. (Not so much Calvin :])

I'm currently a member of an Alliance church where it seems most sermons, if not all, contain at least one quote from A.B. Simpson, A.W. Tozer, or Ravi Zacharias. To me these just seem like great illustrations from brilliant thinkers and men of God, not something being crammed down my throat. Is this an example, jriccitelli, of "man devotion"? I don't think I hold undue affection for these men; I just think they are more able thinkers than I am.

Maybe you should start with this if you haven't already read it...

Jonathan Edwards was a prominent 18th century Calvinist minister. He is probably best remembered for a sermon entitled, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”.

Here is an excerpt:

    “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.”

It is reported that as Edwards preached his sermon, people would moan and cry out and hold on to the pillars of the church buildings because they thought the ground was going to open up and swallow them.

[Michelle]

Maybe you should start with this if you haven't already read it...

Jonathan Edwards was a prominent 18th century Calvinist minister. He is probably best remembered for a sermon entitled, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”.

Here is an excerpt:

    “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.”

It is reported that as Edwards preached his sermon, people would moan and cry out and hold on to the pillars of the church buildings because they thought the ground was going to open up and swallow them.

Thanks, Darin. I had read that excerpt from the sermon, and now I've re-read the entire sermon. To be honest, it makes me squirm. I can't imagine what hearing it delivered must have been like; I'm convinced I'd be moaning and crying as well. Come to think of it, a sermon preached last fall by Mark Driscoll, in which he told his congregation that God hates some of them, seems very similar in tone and style. I was really put off by that sermon as well. Is it a little odd that I become fascinated by men like Jonathan Edwards and Mark Driscoll even though I find their theology troubling?

[jriccitelli]

There is no mistake about Sproul's 'ongoing' devotion to Edwards and Calvin, I have been listening to him for almost 20 years. I really enjoy listening to Dr James Kennedy and John MacArthur and yet I do not get a sense of their Calvinist leanings in their sermons very often, where as Sproul and some others don’t let up.

The human allure to admiration / devotion / dedication / idolize other humans as encapsulating some greatness is not always a bad thing, I suppose, as long as the greatness is of the sort that is not vain or immoral. But when it comes to depending upon / focusing upon / a mortal being in order to gain knowledge of God, or gain relationship with God then you enter into an unbiblical* approach to God.
Yet most humans (Christians included) continue to seek out human leaders and dynamic personalities, usually with the title King, President, Priest, Pastor and yes 'preacher'.
The Eastern allure of Babas, Gurus, Brahmins is one thing but western Christianity 'should' be aware of the elimination of men from the equation of; 'You + Who = an understanding and relationship with God':

"No longer will one man say to another know the Lord, for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:34), "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63), "I will send you a helper and He shall guide you into all truth" (John 16:13)

It is remarkable that many Christians still fall into the 'give us a king' mentality, rather than read of and listen to the Lord who should lead us. I feel Catholicism is the epitome of this mentality and deception, and many protestants cannot seem to shake off this human instinct. Yet the deception goes back to the Garden of Eden, Eve trusted the Serpent and Adam followed along behind Eve despite what God had spoken.

[*Note; The two main things separating humans from God are; 1. The fact that we are created, we are not God (all of Job), And 2. Our 'sins' have separated us from Him. (Isaiah 1:2, 59:2) So the only way to God is for each human to repent and believe His Word, as spoken of and 'verified' by His Prophets, and to accept Christ's atonement as our covering for sins]