O.S.A.S.

[Enrogel]

Hello everybody.....new to this site.....SHALOM. Sorry I have not researched the threads so if this viewpoint has been aired before I apologize. In light of the caution / warning to preachers to contend for THE faith & proclaiming nothing but the truth, ( Gal 1:8 ) ( 2Tim 2:15) I shudder to think what the consequences will be for preachers who offer a false hope to congregations by pandering to their fleshly nature with the OSAS doctrine. I have heard arguments for & against this shaky doctrine but wonder why no student of the word when speaking against OSAS has ever cited the case of Judas who was - without doubt - born again - chosen by Christ to be a disciple - & along with the other eleven disciples given power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases. (Lk 9:1-2) It is also clear from the title Peter ascribed to Judas in Act 1:20 [episcopoi] that he was in fact as saved as any of the other 11 but chose to succumb to the whiles of Satan and even be possessed by him.
Having established the spiritual state of Judas as being one of the twelve in every sense of the word, and that he went to "His own place" idios GK exclusive abode. It is patently obvious that it is possible to fall from grace & lose ones salvation. Besides, Jesus said in Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. The word BELIEVE here is in the present / continuous tense meaning continuing to believe. Likewise in John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: The word FOLLOW here means continue to follow. So it follows that one who ceases to believe & follow ceases to be a SHEEP. One final quagmire the OSAS crowd have to squirm out of is the profound truth Jesus spoke in Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. How the OSAS school can sleep at night in light of these simple but profound truths I can't imagine & it makes me shudder too when I think of all the many backsliders who are simply not following Christ because some preacher deluded them. SHALOM Enrogel.

[Paidion]

We welcome you to the site, Enrogel!

I believed OSAS from my teenage years until I was 23. Finally my eyes were opened to the scripture. Paul and the writer to the Hebrews gave many warnings against apostasy. One could quote many passages, but I'll restrict myself to three passages from Hebrews and one of Paul's from Romans 2:

For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end... (Hebrews 3:14 RSV)

... it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the holy spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6 RSV)

... if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26,27 RSV)

For He will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)

[psimmond]

I believed OSAS until my mid 30's. After a talk with a Wesleyan pastor, I searched the Bible and came to the same conclusion as my Wesleyan friend.

[Singalphile]

I think it's often said that if you accept any one point in TULIP, then the others must also be accepted as logical, consistent corollaries.

I think I can see how that is true for all of the points except for the "Perseverance of the Saints" (or OSAS, basically). It seems that one could accept OSAS/PotS without it necessitating Calvinism. It is the one point in TULIP that I'm not so sure about. I don't affirm OSAS/PotS but, it's very difficult to see how someone would reject and turn on God after knowing Him in any real way. I can see why someone would hold to OSAS for that reason, and as I said, it doesn't seem to me to logically necessitate or lead to Calvinism. Does it?

[robbyyoung]

I think the conditional statements regarding salvation are more a of prophetic statement rather than a "free will" assumption. The conjunction "if" denotes the 100% guarantee of judgement prophesied against unbelief. Since nobody knows, including the Apostles, who actually is saved; the warning of judgement goes out to all. Judas is a prime example of Heb 6:4-6, and as prophesied, He and everyone else who instinctively or inherently reject God without Him intervening in their life, to redeem them, will face judgement. But then again, I could be wrong

God Bless!

[psimmond]

I think Calvinists are 100% correct that the elect will persevere and be saved. After all, they were chosen before the foundation of the world. (Calvinists and Arminians can argue about how God chose them, but both sides agree that they were chosen.)

The gray area involves whether or not a person can genuinely believe for a time and even produce fruit as evidence and later commit apostasy. And if that is accepted as a possibility, the next question might be whether or not that individual had the Holy Spirit living in them for a time. I think a pretty strong biblical case can be made for this. (I wrote a blog about this very thing 2 years ago.)

[Paidion]

An example of an apostate in the book of Acts, was Simon the magician.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

It seems that Simon the magician was truly saved, for:

Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. (Acts 8:13)

But history shows that Simon went back to claiming he was God, and after his death some Roman official erected a statue to his honour containing the words "The great God Simon"

Closer to our day, is the example of Charles Templeton. I think he was a genuine believer. Charles became a well-known evangelist who worked closely with his friend Billy Graham. Many people came to the Lord through Charles' ministry. But one day Charles ceased to believe. Billy attempted to restore him, but Charles said something to this effect, "Billy, I appreciate your heart and what you are trying to do, but I just don't believe that stuff any more."

I know that a believer in OSAS can claim that neither Simon the Magician nor Charles Templeton ever became a true Christian. They can always make that claim, and who can prove them wrong? So OSAS can never be proved wrong since whenever one exhibits a counter-example, they simply claim that the person never had been a true Christian. Had the apostle Paul become an apostate in the end, the same claim would have been made concerning him. And no one could have proved otherwise.

If I claim that there are no blue budgies, and whenever you show be blue budgies, I simply affirm that the all the birds you displayed are NOT budgies, then just how believable is my claim?

If I claim that there are no apostate Christians, and whenever you show me apostate Christians, I simply affirm all the people you displayed never were Christians, then just how believable is my claim?

Any claim which is impossible in principle be falsified, has no truth value.

[dwilkins]

OSAS and perseverance are not the same doctrine. They are very different and come from completely different foundations. In OSAS Simon and Charles would still have salvation and you'd see them in heaven when you get there. As long as they ever believed at some point their salvation is secure no matter what they do later in life. This comes through a view of atonement that is an offshoot of Penal Substitutionary Atonement. The OSAS version is that all sins of all people who have ever believed were judged on the cross and forgiven all men. The exception is the sin of not having believed in Christ. Since Christ had to believe in himself he could not pay for this particular sin. And, for those who at some point in their personal history do decide to believe in Christ they are counted to have rejected this sin. So, for those who believe in Christ there is total forgiveness of all of the sins they did commit, and they avoided doing the one sin that would send them to hell. For the others, their personal immorality was forgiven but they still commit the sin of unbelief so they go to hell. And, since they are all being punished for the same sin ECT is a reasonable result. You can see this strain of thought from L. S. Chafer, to DTS, to Liberty University. This system avoids universalism (and you might say it was invented precisely to do so) by leaving that one sin hanging out there to be the grounds for conviction and punishment. It's pretty clever, but not well founded in scripture once you really look at it.

This is to be contrasted with perseverance. In perseverance (as it is integrated into Calvinism) God chose whose sins to forgive in advance so that not everyone's sins were forgiven on the cross. For those whose sins weren't forgiven the only potential result is hell. Some may think they have had their sins forgiven and may act like Christians for a while because they are deluded. But, eventually, they will return to their natural state before they die so that they apostatize. You have to demonstrate perseverance through life, but the perseverance isn't what saves you. The perseverance only demonstrates whether you were ever really saved to begin with. And, if you persevere, that is evidence that you were one of the ones who was truly saved. This comes from regular PSA, where all sin that was ever going to be forgiven was forgiven while Christ hung on the cross. This can seem sort of a strange ex post facto arrangement when you have someone who was invovled in ministry or some other public faith (especially an evangelistic one) for a long period before he falls away. Calvin postulates in Institutes that what's going on is the Holy Spirit is making the person think he's saved and is using him as a conduit to do ministry. But, in order to glorify God in some way, at the end of his life the person has this false filling of the Spirit taken away so that he naturally falls back into unbelief. This is a clever, logical, but troubling conclusion, though it seems to be the only way to explain apostasy after a long ministry.

Both of these models are wrong, but they are wrong for different reasons and quite distinct from each other.

Doug

[psimmond]

Doug,
nice job of pointing out the differences.

I would only point out that Perseverance doesn't depend on limited atonement. You can be a 4-pointer who accepts unlimited atonement and still believe that only those who were chosen before the foundation of the world will persevere.

[robbyyoung]

OK guys, here's my take... Please take note of the clear example of Judas concerning salvation, The Holy Spirit and unbelief. Judas had "The Holy Spirit" or power to do the works of YAHWEH (Matthew 10:1-7). Therefore, gifts are not a measure of ones salvation. Judas WAS NOT a CHOSEN vessel of honor, but rather, one of dishonor. He who molds the clay decide, like it or not (Romans 9:21). We are all worthless clay by nature and The Creator decides "the creature's" lot. Satan was created to be a liar and adversary, by nature, from the beginning (John 8:44). Yes, this all seems contrary to the touchy, feely gospel of our day, but truth is what's driving the train, not popular opinion or man-made philosophies so prevalent throughout time. Biblical examples are our anchor points and when seemingly contradictions are apparent, our confusion should yield to His sovereignty as FAITH pulls us to a stronger reliance upon YAHWEH. The Father has left us with Faith, Hope and Love to sustain us through the ages to come (I say this as a Full Preterist) so that we remain dependent upon the grace that's able to save us, being born again not of the will of the flesh, but of YAHWEH (John 1:13).

Judas is an awesome example of YAHWEH'S sovereignty, therefore, present your case with biblical examples. The unsaved are nothing more than prophetic realities that took place and are taking place. As always, YAHWEH'S prophecies are 100% accurate and will never be proven otherwise. Today, the tabernacle of YAHWEH is with man and the stone that was cut out without hands, which became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth, IMHO, is our reality today. But then again, I could be wrong

God Bless!