A Simple Argument for Open Theism

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Homer
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Homer » Sun May 11, 2014 4:27 pm

If God knows that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M., then it is now true that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M.
If it is now true that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M., then you cannot refrain from raising your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M.
Therefore you do not have the ability to choose not to raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M.
Apply this to all of your other actions which God "sees" in advance, and you have no free will.
But what if God knows what I will freely decide to do? Then I do have free will. That does not seem so hard to me.

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Sun May 11, 2014 7:21 pm

But what if God knows what I will freely decide to do?
Homer, that idea is inherently self-contradictory. It's a bit like asking, "What if God knows how to create a rock so large that He can't lift it?"
Paidion

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mattrose
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by mattrose » Sun May 11, 2014 7:53 pm

More and more I'm thinking that most arminians are open theists without realizing it

Practically, they think that God let history play out (with free creatures) in His mind. Then, He pushed rewind and started this history movie over (this time, He knew every detail in advance b/c He had seen the movie already).

So, essentially, they believe that history played out in an open theist way.... but now we are just re-playing that history. There was free will, so to speak (since it only existed in God's mind), in the original take... but now we are destined to make the decisions we already made in God's mind.

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steve
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by steve » Mon May 12, 2014 12:05 am

Hi Paidion,

Not all men see contradictions in the same places. In a sense, you believe God can make a rock that He can't move, because you believe (as I do) that God chose to create free will in man—something that He cannot move by force. If God wants to limit His options by creating free will, I believe He may do so. Similarly, if God wished to make a rock that He could never, thereafter, move to another place, I believe He has that prerogative as well.

For God to know what we will freely do seems self-contradictory, given our level of knowledge concerning God's abilities and limits. We know there are things God cannot do, since the Bible names some of them—e.g., He cannot lie, cannot be tempted with evil, cannot deny Himself, etc. However, if there is the possibility that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy, then God, who knows all things, and can find His way around in cosmic realities that we do not even know are there, may have access to some things that we do not think are accessible.

Just sayin.'

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Homer
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Homer » Mon May 12, 2014 10:34 am

Hi Paidion and Matt,

What I am saying is that God (Jesus) knew ahead of Peter's decision to deny Jesus three times (and when - before the cock crew) that Peter would do exactly that and that Peter acted out of his own free will. And I also agree that it was inevitable that Peter would do as Jesus said.

The problem here is that we are mere finite humans and we are trying to put parameters around what our infinite God can and cannot do. Where, in what He has revealed to us, do you find that He can not know what free will creatures will decide?

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Mon May 12, 2014 11:59 am

Actually, the open theist position is not at all about God's abilities or knowledge which may well be beyond our comprehension. It is about whether or not the future is settled. If the future is settled, then surely God, or even we (to a limited degree) can know what will take place. But then, if the future is settled, there is no free will. It all plays out like a movie reel. If a person plays the movie a second time, he knows exactly what each character will "choose".

But if the future is not already settled, then sentences about the future have no truth value. They are neither true nor false. For that reason, they cannot be known. I can know P (where P is a proposition) only if P is either true of false. That is what it MEANS to "know". If P is neither true or false, there is nothing to know.

If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is a true sentence, then you cannot refrain from eating pizza tomorrow. The "movie" must run its course.

If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is a false sentence, then you cannot eat pizza tomorrow. The "movie" must run its course.

And so with all other human actions. If the future is settled, we have no option but to play out the settled "movie reel".

But the sentence, "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is NEITHER true nor false. It will become true or false when you have made your choice. For you have free will.

So the future doesn't become any more settled because the omniscient Being exerts His omniscient powers. He is truly omniscient. He knows all that there is to know. But concerning what a free-will agent will choose tomorrow, there is nothing to know. The agent has not yet made his choice. The set of actions which free-will agents will perform tomorrow is an empty set. There is nothing in that set to know. The set will contain members only when the agents make their decisions. It doesn't even make sense to speak of "knowing" in advance what a free-will agent will choose. That concept in inherently self-contradictory.

When I say, "I know what George is going to do", I merely mean, "I predict what he is going to do." My prediction is based on what I observed George to do in the past under similar circumstances. When James, my oldest son was a little boy, I would have affirmed very strongly that if I said, "Jamie, come here," that I knew he would come. But I didn't KNOW he would come (in the absolute sense of "know"). He could have chosen not to do so.

Knowing the future, in the sense of prediction, and not in the absolute sense, can certainly be ascribed to God. He is in a much better position to know the future in this sense than we. For He knows the thoughts and intents of the heart of every person (Heb 4:12). He knows every past choice that every human being on earth has ever made, and in what circumstances they made it. That is why almost every prediction or prophecy that God has made in the past has played out in reality. If open theism were false, then it would be the case that EVERY prediction of prophecy of God would have become reality.
But this is not the case. The Bible records several instances in which God's prophecies did not become reality because of the free-will choices of mankind.
Paidion

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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by dizerner » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:40 pm

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:55 pm

It seems to me that the most thorough presentation and defense of the openness view of God is John Sanders book The God Who Risks: A Theology of Providence

Here is a brief two-page article about the book from the Western Reformed Seminary Journal 12/1 (February 2005)

http://wrs.edu/Materials_for_Web_Site/J ... review.pdf
Paidion

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Singalphile
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Singalphile » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:31 pm

Paidion wrote:But if the future is not already settled, then sentences about the future have no truth value. They are neither true nor false. For that reason, they cannot be known. I can know P (where P is a proposition) only if P is either true of false. That is what it MEANS to "know". If P is neither true or false, there is nothing to know.

If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is a true sentence, then you cannot refrain from eating pizza tomorrow. The "movie" must run its course.
If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is a false sentence, then you cannot eat pizza tomorrow. The "movie" must run its course.
And so with all other human actions. If the future is settled, we have no option but to play out the settled "movie reel".

But the sentence, "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is NEITHER true nor false. It will become true or false when you have made your choice. For you have free will.
I don't quite understand that. I see it like this:

If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is true, then that means that you will choose (or be forced) to eat pizza tomorrow.
If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is false, then that means you will choose not (or be unable) to eat pizza tomorrow.
The fact that we don't know which is correct, doesn't mean that neither is correct. We know for certain that one of them is correct, don't we? Come the day after tomorrow, we (or you) will find out which one of the statements was true.

So I don't understand why you say that the statement is neither true nor false. I do understand that it gets complicated when we say that God knows.

This has been discussed 1,000 times, I know.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:19 pm

If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is true, then that means that you will choose (or be forced) to eat pizza tomorrow.
No. If "You are going to eat pizza tomorrow" is true, then you CANNOT refrain from eating pizza tomorrow. Where, then, is your free will?
Paidion

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