The Apostle Paul's Conversion

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RickC
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by RickC » Fri May 08, 2015 12:48 pm

Hello dizerner --
You wrote:I suppose they see that as coherent, but I would see omniscience as literally knowing everything, without restraint, restriction or qualification, meaning there is no "Impossible" to know for God, or we'd remove the omni, because we can clearly say "here is a thing God does not know."
On Greg Boyd's view God knows all things. How he differs from traditional views and from other Open Theists is that he believes God knows some things as possibilities (knowing possibilities-as-if-they-were-certainties). In other words, God knows all things, whether they are settled or possible.

'Nuf said, I guess!

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robbyyoung
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The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by robbyyoung » Fri May 08, 2015 1:28 pm

RickC wrote:God knows some things as possibilities (knowing possibilities-as-if-they-were-certainties).
Hi RickC,

We can ONLY possess ONE determined action, making it a PAST event. Some events transpire in our life which had nothing to do with our decisions, like being born into this world. God knows our thoughts and the ONLY determined action to take place. This possibility angle seems to be unnecessary.

God bless.


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Robby Young
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Last edited by robbyyoung on Fri May 08, 2015 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RickC
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by RickC » Fri May 08, 2015 2:36 pm

Hello Robby --
You wrote:We can ONLY possess ONE determined action, making it a PAST event. Some events transpire in our life which had nothing to do with our decisions, like being born into this world. God knows our thoughts and the ONLY determined action to take place. This possibility angel seems to be unnecessary.
If you believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all things (as do Calvinists and Arminians), I don't have a beef with that. I just thought to put my and Greg Boyd's view out there.

Btw, Boyd referred to his view as OFV (Open View of the Future) since, technically speaking, his view has to do with the nature of the future, and in terms of God's sovereignty over it.

(Edited in a few moments later, for anyone interested) ---

Greg Boyd's 2008 talk on A Flexible Sovereignty

In it Greg gives many examples from Scripture about the real possibilities. One offhand was when God told Hezekiah he would die, but then changed His mind. Greg's point being; If God had exhaustive foreknowledge that Hezekiah's life would be extended, why was He telling Hezekiah he would die soon? Was God lying? Or was Hezekiah's soon to be death a possibility? Greg submitted (and I agree) that God was not lying. Had Hezekiah not sought God and gotten his life extended, he would have died as God said. But things changed (in the realm of possibilities).

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Fri May 08, 2015 4:20 pm

You really think God had no idea Hezekiah would ask for him to change things? Free will interaction might seem paradoxical, but not if God's knowledge does not influence his interactions.

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Paidion
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Fri May 08, 2015 6:04 pm

Rick, you wrote:Hello Paidion --
You, to dizerner wrote:All open theists believe that God is truly omniscient, because He knows everything that is possible to know.
As I posted, and to correct you; some Open Theists hold to this belief. Greg Boyd and myself being among the exceptions.
I don't understand you, Rick. That which you quoted above is one of Greg Boyd's exact statements.

Some of what you wrote above sounds more like William Craig's "counter-factual knowledge" than it does like open theism.
Paidion

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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Fri May 08, 2015 6:28 pm

[quote="Dizerner,you""]I suppose they see that as coherent, but I would see omniscience as literally knowing everything, without restraint, restriction or qualification, meaning there is no "Impossible" to know for God, or we'd remove the omni, because we can clearly say "here is a thing God does not know."[/quote]

I gave you an example of something that it is impossible for God to know—that you are now standing at the top of Mount Everest. It is impossible for ANYONE to know ANYTHING which does not correspond to reality. The future acts of free-will agents are not reality—yet, and therefore cannot be known. Statements about the future acts of free-will agents are neither true nor false—yet. They will become true or false after those free-will agents make their choices.

The body of present reality is limited to the present. Even past events are not present reality, though they can be known since they have already occurred, and they lead to present reality. As Rick pointed out, God knows all possible choices that people can make. He is in a much better position to predict the future than any human being. And the character of the future is such, that it can only be predicted but not known. Some of God's predictions did not turn out to be reality, one being the unqualified prediction that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days.

Here is another:
The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return... (Jeremiah 3:6,7 ESV)

If God THOUGHT Israel would return to Him, and she didn't return, then He didn't KNOW that she wouldn't return.
Or even if the word is translated as SAID rather than THOUGHT, it amounts to the same thing. For if God SAID she would return, while KNOWING she wouldn't, then He would have lied.

I am aware that some translations render "return" as if it were a command. I don't know Hebrew, but the Greek word in the Septuagint is not in the imperative mode.
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Fri May 08, 2015 7:13 pm

It is impossible for ANYONE to know ANYTHING which does not correspond to reality.
It would seem against logic, but if one believes there are things beyond logic, I'm not sure you could prove this statement. There are Scriptural indications that God is beyond logic itself.
The future acts of free-will agents are not reality—yet, and therefore cannot be known.
But you are making the huge assumption that all things are within the framework of human time. Especially, say, if we were to have Scriptural indications that God were outside of time (even the phrase in the beginning would imply that).
Even past events are not present reality, though they can be known since they have already occurred
However, someone has to be present and perfectly remember them. Here's a fun test: try to remember what you were doing yesterday at exactly this time. How many things in all of the universe's history have been forgotten? I'm assuming you would at least give God true omnipresence, and thus he could remember everything perfectly?
Some of God's predictions did not turn out to be reality, one being the unqualified prediction that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days.
I noticed how you slip the word "unqualified" prediction. That's a huge assumption. All of God's dealings with men, Biblically, seem qualified to me. It's an apparent assumption in all human relations if you are not a Calvinist (I'll admit all Calvinist dealings are completely "unqualified"). So when Jonah announced the downfall of Ninevah, you're presuppositions tell you that it's unqualified because God didn't specifically write in the Bible that Jonah added "unless you repent." My presuppositions derived from an overall reading of Scripture tells me that God's declarations are always qualified, unless God specifically adds in the fact that they are not qualified, or that the unpardonable sin has been committed.
If God THOUGHT Israel would return to Him, and she didn't return, then He didn't KNOW that she wouldn't return.
I believe in relationships God withholds from his relational self his absolute knowledge. Thus he can truly love and fellowship with someone he knows will someday betray him and be damned (like Judas, whom I believe was a true apostle in the beginning). You would imagine that if you were in a loving relationship with God, and suddenly he expressed his anger at you, and you said "But why God?" and God said "Because I know that on your deathbed you will curse me," that would feel very strange compared to the normal way we relate, and also would be a violation of the sanctity of our free will (perhaps even producing paradoxes). So God can say "I thought Adam would obey me" at the same time as "I know Adam won't obey me" and I see those as two different sets of knowledge.

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Fri May 08, 2015 7:23 pm

Just to give one Scriptural backing to the points I've raised.

"And they will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt, and you will say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.' 19 "But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. (Exo 3:18-19 NAS)

Here we have God knowing a hypothetical (ala Molinism) yet still giving Pharaoh what we would call the benefit of the doubt, approaching Pharaoh, asking him to let the people go, and giving him a chance to make the actual decision to harden his heart that God knows he will do. Thus God's relational self is acting with Pharaoh as if God didn't know Pharaoh's future free will choice out of respect, I believe, for the sovereignty of Pharaoh's free will decision. This and many other verses describe God having knowledge about things deep in our hearts that no one else could know, and knowledge of future choices we will make. One striking example is, the Apostle John saw his own name on the foundation stones of heaven's city, while he was still in this life (perhaps not for long but still with the theoretical ability to use his free will to reject the Lord).

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Paidion
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Fri May 08, 2015 7:52 pm

Dizerner wrote:I noticed how you slip the word "unqualified" prediction. That's a huge assumption. All of God's dealings with men, Biblically, seem qualified to me. It's an apparent assumption in all human relations if you are not a Calvinist (I'll admit all Calvinist dealings are completely "unqualified"). So when Jonah announced the downfall of Ninevah, you're presuppositions tell you that it's unqualified because God didn't specifically write in the Bible that Jonah added "unless you repent." My presuppositions derived from an overall reading of Scripture tells me that God's declarations are always qualified, unless God specifically adds in the fact that they are not qualified, or that the unpardonable sin has been committed.
Okay, let's assume that God's word, "Yet forty days and Ninevah will be overthrown" actually meant, "Unless you repent, Ninevah will be overthrown in 40 days." I think this is going to give you an insurmountable problem. For consider the following:

When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. (Jonah 3:10 NASB)

It says that God had DECLARED that He would bring a particular calamity on Ninevah, that is, that it would be overthrown in 40 days. That sounds unqualified. But again let's assume that this really means, "God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them, if they did not repent." But then why would God RELENT concerning what He had said He would do? There would be nothing of which to relent—IF He meant that He would bring the calamity only if they did not repent. However, if it were an unconditional prophecy, and He had actually MEANT to destroy them in 40 days, but when He saw that they had changed their minds, it would make sense for Him to relent of what He had intended to do. For having looked at the condition of their hearts and minds, it seemed that they would not repent. Yet, of their own free will, they unexpectedly DID repent at Jonah's warning. Jonah certainly understood it to be an unconditional prophecy. For:

...Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city. (Jonah 4:5 NASB)

He also got angry when God changed his mind and didn't destroy the city. He fully expected Him to do so.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Homer » Fri May 08, 2015 11:09 pm

Hi Paidion,

Earlier you wrote:
The fact that the future doesn't exist is more than "cute." It's a fact.
Well, you are partially correct. That the future does not exist is a truth but it is not a fact. Fact, from the Latin factum refers to "that which has been done".

From:
http://theoyl.com/key-concepts/fact-vs-truth/
Definition of FACT

1: a thing done: as

3: the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>

4a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact>

b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>

5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
If it is a fact that God can not know the future we would have no basis for discussion. But this is a matter of truth, not fact, and thus we have differing opinions. (All facts are true but all truth is not a fact.)

By definition what I will do, or anyone will do in the future is not a fact until it has been done and thus can not be known as a fact but can it be known as a truth? Can something be true that has not happened, that is in the future? Is the scenario in Matthew 25 regarding the sheep and goats a fact? Absolutely not but it is the truth.

Can God know truth regarding what He will do in the future? It doesn't seem possible for Him to know what He will do if it depends on what we will do. So in that case He does not know what He will do let alone what we will do. Omniscience doesn't seem to amount to much in some quarters; we seem to have a reactive God.

Whatever happened to sovereignty?

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