Jude 1:4 "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil."
1 Peter 2:8 "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
Quit fighting against God's sovereignty as he chooses which individuals go to hell and which go to heaven. Submit your pride to Him and repent of your stubborness. Scripture is clear.
Pooooow....
The gun has been shot...
Arminians scatter as the smoke clears...
...to the true gospel, the reformed faith....
The Reformer
Election to hell is God's choice
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_Anonymous
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Election to hell is God's choice
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Welcome to these proceedings, Reformer,
If "the scriptures are clear" in favor of Calvinism, as you suggest, one wonders why it is that no one could find that doctrine in scripture prior to Augustine (about 400 AD). Those who hastily speak of the "clarity of scripture" on disputed matters only give away the limitedness of their own exposure to the good arguments on both sides. In other words, they display their ignorance.
If you discern an aroma of pride here, before you suspect others, you might check your own upper lip. That may be what you are smelling. There is nothing of humility in your presentation. As much as I hate to make generalizations, I must say that the Calvinists at this forum, and in most debates that I have had occasion to observe, have generally shown themselves to be strangers to humility while they rail at the alleged arrogance of the Arminians.
The naivete with which you assume that the scriptures you presented (standard Calvinist fare) prove your point without further discussion is enough to evoke embarrassed pity toward you. Come at it a little more humbly, Bro, and you will have less occasion of embarrassment.
The scriptures that you gave, as I said, are the standard Calvinist proof texts, and illustrate how little real exegetical work is really done by those in your camp. Too often, your compatriots take a "see there!" approach to a verse that, at first blush, may appear to affirm a Calvinist idea, but often neglecting to look at either context or grammar before seizing upon an opportunity to embarrass themselves in scriptural debate.
The men who were "marked out" (the KJV sounds even more Calvinistic: "ordained") for condemnation (in Jude 4) were not necessarily unconditionally "predestined" to their fate. The Greek verb is prographo, meaning "written before."
The people to whom Jude is referring are "ungodly men" (hence their condemnation), who were long ago "written before" (i.e. by the apostles, like Peter, in 2 Peter 2—the chapter to which Jude alludes throughout his epistle—see Jude 17-18). There is no suggestion here that they were foreordained by some sovereign decree to choose an ungodly life. Only that there was former written reference to their coming and to their being condemned for their ungodliness.
As Proverbs 16:4 says, God truly has made everything—and all men, including those who have since gone bad—and will fulfill His purposes in all men. His purpose is to reward the good and to doom the evil—whoever they may turn out to be. The categories are fixed, but not their constuencies. Individuals have a choice (Gen.4:6-7).
Peter says (in 1 Peter 2:8) that those who are unbelievers were "appointed" to stumble, "being disobedient to the word." Was it a career of disobedience to which they were appointed, or was it stumbling that was "appointed" for them as a consequence of their disobedience? The sentence can be understood either way, but it is more in keeping with the declarations of scripture to say that they chose their own ways, whereas God chose their punishments (in this case, stumbling). See Isaiah 66:3-4— "Just as they have chosen their own ways...so will I choose their delusions."
Nice try, but your shot was so far off-target that the Arminians didn't even have to duck. Why do you feel a need to shoot at the brethren, anyway?
If it gives you satisfaction to do so, you are welcome to take another shot.
If "the scriptures are clear" in favor of Calvinism, as you suggest, one wonders why it is that no one could find that doctrine in scripture prior to Augustine (about 400 AD). Those who hastily speak of the "clarity of scripture" on disputed matters only give away the limitedness of their own exposure to the good arguments on both sides. In other words, they display their ignorance.
If you discern an aroma of pride here, before you suspect others, you might check your own upper lip. That may be what you are smelling. There is nothing of humility in your presentation. As much as I hate to make generalizations, I must say that the Calvinists at this forum, and in most debates that I have had occasion to observe, have generally shown themselves to be strangers to humility while they rail at the alleged arrogance of the Arminians.
The naivete with which you assume that the scriptures you presented (standard Calvinist fare) prove your point without further discussion is enough to evoke embarrassed pity toward you. Come at it a little more humbly, Bro, and you will have less occasion of embarrassment.
The scriptures that you gave, as I said, are the standard Calvinist proof texts, and illustrate how little real exegetical work is really done by those in your camp. Too often, your compatriots take a "see there!" approach to a verse that, at first blush, may appear to affirm a Calvinist idea, but often neglecting to look at either context or grammar before seizing upon an opportunity to embarrass themselves in scriptural debate.
The men who were "marked out" (the KJV sounds even more Calvinistic: "ordained") for condemnation (in Jude 4) were not necessarily unconditionally "predestined" to their fate. The Greek verb is prographo, meaning "written before."
The people to whom Jude is referring are "ungodly men" (hence their condemnation), who were long ago "written before" (i.e. by the apostles, like Peter, in 2 Peter 2—the chapter to which Jude alludes throughout his epistle—see Jude 17-18). There is no suggestion here that they were foreordained by some sovereign decree to choose an ungodly life. Only that there was former written reference to their coming and to their being condemned for their ungodliness.
As Proverbs 16:4 says, God truly has made everything—and all men, including those who have since gone bad—and will fulfill His purposes in all men. His purpose is to reward the good and to doom the evil—whoever they may turn out to be. The categories are fixed, but not their constuencies. Individuals have a choice (Gen.4:6-7).
Peter says (in 1 Peter 2:8) that those who are unbelievers were "appointed" to stumble, "being disobedient to the word." Was it a career of disobedience to which they were appointed, or was it stumbling that was "appointed" for them as a consequence of their disobedience? The sentence can be understood either way, but it is more in keeping with the declarations of scripture to say that they chose their own ways, whereas God chose their punishments (in this case, stumbling). See Isaiah 66:3-4— "Just as they have chosen their own ways...so will I choose their delusions."
Nice try, but your shot was so far off-target that the Arminians didn't even have to duck. Why do you feel a need to shoot at the brethren, anyway?
If it gives you satisfaction to do so, you are welcome to take another shot.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Anonymous
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Just a thought regarding predestination and Israel (I haven't taken time to study this in any depth). Wasn't Israel (all of them) "predestined" by God to have the promised land as a home when God brought them out of Egypt, and yet how many of them got there? Most of them were slain in the desert! I realize the word "predestined" isn't used in the account but isn't the same idea present in Israel's story?
It is most interesting and pertinent that Paul applies their fate as a warning to Christians, including himself, in 1 Corinthians 10. Perhaps Paul can be excused because he never had the opportunity to be enlightened by Augustine and Calvin.
It is most interesting and pertinent that Paul applies their fate as a warning to Christians, including himself, in 1 Corinthians 10. Perhaps Paul can be excused because he never had the opportunity to be enlightened by Augustine and Calvin.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Re: Election to hell is God's choice
Uhm, we're still here. It would be nice if you would come back though, and defend your position.the reformer wrote: Pooooow....
The gun has been shot...
Arminians scatter as the smoke clears...
...to the true gospel, the reformed faith....
The Reformer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
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_SoaringEagle
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Gregory Boyd's commentary on specific passages:
Proverbs 16:4
“The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.”
Compatiblists often cite this verse to support the conclusion that some people are created wicked for the expressed purpose of being sent to hell. Since Scripture teaches that God is love (1 John 4:8, 16), that God loves all people (John 3:16) and thus does not willing afflict anyone (Lam. 3:33) or will their damnation (Ezek. 18:30–32; 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9), we should seek for a different interpretation.
An alternative interpretation is not difficult to find. Proverbs 16:4 is using the language of moral order. God set up creation such that good is (eventually) rewarded and evil (eventually) punished. In this sense the “purpose” for the wicked is found in the “day of trouble” that shall come upon them. It’s significant to note that the verb translated in the NRSV as “made” (pâ’al) can be translated as “works out” (as in the NIV), an observation that confirms our interpretation. God steers the wickedness of agents so that their end eventually fits the moral order of creation. Moreover, the word translated as “purpose” (ma’ neh) can be translated as “answer.”*
The meaning of the passage, then, is that God works things out so that the end of the wicked “answers” their wickedness. They eventually reap what they sow. We thus need not entertain the gruesome prospect of God creating people for the expressed purpose of having them suffer endlessly.
Note
* See D. Clines, “Predestination in the Old Testament,” in Grace Unlimited, ed. C. Pinnock (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 1975), 122.
Proverbs 16:4
“The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.”
Compatiblists often cite this verse to support the conclusion that some people are created wicked for the expressed purpose of being sent to hell. Since Scripture teaches that God is love (1 John 4:8, 16), that God loves all people (John 3:16) and thus does not willing afflict anyone (Lam. 3:33) or will their damnation (Ezek. 18:30–32; 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9), we should seek for a different interpretation.
An alternative interpretation is not difficult to find. Proverbs 16:4 is using the language of moral order. God set up creation such that good is (eventually) rewarded and evil (eventually) punished. In this sense the “purpose” for the wicked is found in the “day of trouble” that shall come upon them. It’s significant to note that the verb translated in the NRSV as “made” (pâ’al) can be translated as “works out” (as in the NIV), an observation that confirms our interpretation. God steers the wickedness of agents so that their end eventually fits the moral order of creation. Moreover, the word translated as “purpose” (ma’ neh) can be translated as “answer.”*
The meaning of the passage, then, is that God works things out so that the end of the wicked “answers” their wickedness. They eventually reap what they sow. We thus need not entertain the gruesome prospect of God creating people for the expressed purpose of having them suffer endlessly.
Note
* See D. Clines, “Predestination in the Old Testament,” in Grace Unlimited, ed. C. Pinnock (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 1975), 122.
Last edited by _jeffreyclong on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_SoaringEagle
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Jude 1:4 "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
There is no suggestion in this text whatsoever that these people were predetermined to be ungodly people who turn the grace of God into licentiousness, and to be people who deny Jesus. The The words (hoi palai progegrammenoi) simply show the fact that the evil careers/lifestyles and just condemnation of such men were foretold by Enoch (vs. 14) and others of old. This doesn't require God to know the future, and because of this, this is not a text commonly used against open Theists. Hoever, one It is entirely possible that God can exhaustively foreknow their choices without actually determining them just like, meaning it is entirely possible that God's foreknowedge of the future alone does not determine it anymore than our knowledge of the past alone determines it.
Matt 24:11 (Jesus said) Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Acts 20:29 (Paul said) For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Pet 2:1 (Peter said) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
In each of the four passages above, we see a prediction of false leaders, yet there is no suggestion in any of these that they were predetermined to be false leaders, nor is there any hint that they were predetermined to do what it says they will do. It's the same with Jude 4.
There is no suggestion in this text whatsoever that these people were predetermined to be ungodly people who turn the grace of God into licentiousness, and to be people who deny Jesus. The The words (hoi palai progegrammenoi) simply show the fact that the evil careers/lifestyles and just condemnation of such men were foretold by Enoch (vs. 14) and others of old. This doesn't require God to know the future, and because of this, this is not a text commonly used against open Theists. Hoever, one It is entirely possible that God can exhaustively foreknow their choices without actually determining them just like, meaning it is entirely possible that God's foreknowedge of the future alone does not determine it anymore than our knowledge of the past alone determines it.
Matt 24:11 (Jesus said) Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Acts 20:29 (Paul said) For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Pet 2:1 (Peter said) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
In each of the four passages above, we see a prediction of false leaders, yet there is no suggestion in any of these that they were predetermined to be false leaders, nor is there any hint that they were predetermined to do what it says they will do. It's the same with Jude 4.
Last edited by _jeffreyclong on Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_SoaringEagle
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1 Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
Were they appointed to choose to not believe, or were they appointed to stumble, as a punishment and consequence of choosing to not believe? calvinists seem to think the former, that they were appointed by God's choice and plan of election, to choose to not believe. Grammatically, the passage may be contructed to present either one. The matter of this hinges on the reference given for the phrase "to which also they were appointed". Was the appointing to disobedience, or to both stumbling and disobedience, or to stumbling as the consequence of disobedience? A.T Robertson says: Toi Logoi can be construed with apeithountes (stumble, being disobedient to the word). Whereunto also they were appointed (eis ho kai etethesan). First aorist passive indicative of tihemi. Robertson's conclusion from his exegesis of the greek is that "their disobedience is not ordained, but the penalty of their disobedience is. They rebelled against God and paid the penalty".
Steve Gregg says "it is more in keeping with the declarations of scripture to say that they chose their own ways, whereas God chose their punishments (in this case, stumbling). See Isaiah 66:3-4— "Just as they have chosen their own ways...so will I choose their delusions." And I agree. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - And for this reason, (because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved) God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Here we see that these people here chose to not receive the love of truth, that they might be saved, so God chose their punishment. In this case, their punishment was strong delusion. They wanted to believe lies, and were actively rebelling against God by resisting to recieve the truth, so God punished them by given them what they wanted.
Gregory Boyd in his commentary on specific passages, says:
This passage is sometimes cited as evidence that the delusions that unbelievers embrace are as much a part of God’s sovereign will as believers’ enlightenment. Yet, compatiblists insist, this occurs in such a way that unbelievers are responsible for their delusions though believers have only God to thank for their enlightenment. There is a less paradoxical (contradictory?) interpretation of this passage available to us.
First, we should note that the passage says that God “sends...powerful delusions...so that all who have not believed...will be condemned” (emphasis added). The delusions God sends doesn’t explain why unbelievers don’t believe. It only explains how God responds to their unbelief. He condemns it.
Second, it is not too difficult to surmise how God might “send powerful delusions” in response to unbelief without directly attributing deception to God. We saw earlier (Judg. 9:23; 2 Sam. 24:1, 1 Chron. 21:1) that sometimes the intentions of evil spirits fit in with God’s intention to judge people. There is a certain poetic justice in letting deceiving spirits delude people who have already demonstrated that they want to believe lies. This conception may lie behind Paul’s word to the Thessalonians.
Another example of God's actions are found in Jesus' words:
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
And so as far as 1 Peter 2:8 goes, I myself wouldn't use this passage to show pre-destination of the reprobate to hell any more than I would in the saying of Jesus and the wise man and foolish man. One responded by hearing Jesus sayings and done them, therefore was wise. The other hears Jesus sayings and does not do them, and is considered foolish. To say that God pre-destined those described in 1 Peter 2:8 to disobey, is also like saying those in Matthew 7 were pre-destined to not do what the heard Jesus teaching to do, and then calling them foolish for something they were predetermined to do. So what we have, is, those in 1 Peter are continuiously disobeying God, and on that path they are destined to stumble. God doesn't ordain their choice, but their punishment--stumbling.
Were they appointed to choose to not believe, or were they appointed to stumble, as a punishment and consequence of choosing to not believe? calvinists seem to think the former, that they were appointed by God's choice and plan of election, to choose to not believe. Grammatically, the passage may be contructed to present either one. The matter of this hinges on the reference given for the phrase "to which also they were appointed". Was the appointing to disobedience, or to both stumbling and disobedience, or to stumbling as the consequence of disobedience? A.T Robertson says: Toi Logoi can be construed with apeithountes (stumble, being disobedient to the word). Whereunto also they were appointed (eis ho kai etethesan). First aorist passive indicative of tihemi. Robertson's conclusion from his exegesis of the greek is that "their disobedience is not ordained, but the penalty of their disobedience is. They rebelled against God and paid the penalty".
Steve Gregg says "it is more in keeping with the declarations of scripture to say that they chose their own ways, whereas God chose their punishments (in this case, stumbling). See Isaiah 66:3-4— "Just as they have chosen their own ways...so will I choose their delusions." And I agree. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - And for this reason, (because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved) God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Here we see that these people here chose to not receive the love of truth, that they might be saved, so God chose their punishment. In this case, their punishment was strong delusion. They wanted to believe lies, and were actively rebelling against God by resisting to recieve the truth, so God punished them by given them what they wanted.
Gregory Boyd in his commentary on specific passages, says:
This passage is sometimes cited as evidence that the delusions that unbelievers embrace are as much a part of God’s sovereign will as believers’ enlightenment. Yet, compatiblists insist, this occurs in such a way that unbelievers are responsible for their delusions though believers have only God to thank for their enlightenment. There is a less paradoxical (contradictory?) interpretation of this passage available to us.
First, we should note that the passage says that God “sends...powerful delusions...so that all who have not believed...will be condemned” (emphasis added). The delusions God sends doesn’t explain why unbelievers don’t believe. It only explains how God responds to their unbelief. He condemns it.
Second, it is not too difficult to surmise how God might “send powerful delusions” in response to unbelief without directly attributing deception to God. We saw earlier (Judg. 9:23; 2 Sam. 24:1, 1 Chron. 21:1) that sometimes the intentions of evil spirits fit in with God’s intention to judge people. There is a certain poetic justice in letting deceiving spirits delude people who have already demonstrated that they want to believe lies. This conception may lie behind Paul’s word to the Thessalonians.
Another example of God's actions are found in Jesus' words:
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
And so as far as 1 Peter 2:8 goes, I myself wouldn't use this passage to show pre-destination of the reprobate to hell any more than I would in the saying of Jesus and the wise man and foolish man. One responded by hearing Jesus sayings and done them, therefore was wise. The other hears Jesus sayings and does not do them, and is considered foolish. To say that God pre-destined those described in 1 Peter 2:8 to disobey, is also like saying those in Matthew 7 were pre-destined to not do what the heard Jesus teaching to do, and then calling them foolish for something they were predetermined to do. So what we have, is, those in 1 Peter are continuiously disobeying God, and on that path they are destined to stumble. God doesn't ordain their choice, but their punishment--stumbling.
Last edited by _jeffreyclong on Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_brody_in_ga
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Pooow
The gun has fired
The dust has settled
and the Calvinist has run
never to appear again
on the Family bible fellowship forum
Anyone here notice that Calvinists "proof-text" more than Jehovah Witnesses?
The gun has fired
The dust has settled
and the Calvinist has run
never to appear again
on the Family bible fellowship forum
Anyone here notice that Calvinists "proof-text" more than Jehovah Witnesses?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29
Hebrews 12:29
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_Evangelion
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Re: Election to hell is God's choice
If Reformed Christianity is "the true gospel", why hadn't anyone heard of it until it was invented by the Reformers?the reformer wrote:Jude 1:4 "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil."
1 Peter 2:8 "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
Quit fighting against God's sovereignty as he chooses which individuals go to hell and which go to heaven. Submit your pride to Him and repent of your stubborness. Scripture is clear.
Pooooow....
The gun has been shot...
Arminians scatter as the smoke clears...
...to the true gospel, the reformed faith....
The Reformer
By the way, not every non-Reformed Christian is an Arminian.
And if God simply chooses who's damned and who's saved, then Reformed Christians shouldn't bother preaching the Gospel anyway, because it's all a foregone conclusion.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
Søren Kierkegaard
Søren Kierkegaard