Open question about Romans 9-11
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:24 am
Question: How does the standard calvinist interpretation of Romans 8:28-9:24 "work" when read in the full context of Romans 9-11.
You can hear James White's take on Romans 9 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKJgC1_6NN0
First, Romans 9. If you like, just accept what James White (or your favorite Calvinist commentary) says it means. Then keep reading. Let's find out what Paul thinks about the non-elect Jew's fate.
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So the "called" have one end, but what about the rest?
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
First, Paul already seems to have stated what the elect or "called" receive from chapters 8-9. Rom 9:24 says they were prepared for glory. So who is it that Paul desires to be saved? Well, Romans 9:6 tells us that not all Israel are of Israel. So Paul, after his discussion through Romans 9 "seems" to tell us the fate of the two classes of Jews (yes, Gentiles get in there too). There are the ones God has compassion on and the ones He hardens ("vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"). Paul reveals that he desires that they may be saved!
Paul goes on through Romans 10 telling us that they should have known better but they did not. They are disobedient.
Now, it gets interesting. Paul says:
Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
So it seems those whom God foreknew are not going to be cast away, we all know that. Let's read on...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
How can Paul say that?! The elect obtained, but the blinded ones Paul says they have not fallen beyond recovery! They are actually to be provoked by the Gentiles coming to salvation. How can someone who is not elect and blinded by God be provoked to jealousy if what is required is that they be "elect" by God from the foundation of the earth?
Paul says it again:
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Tell me. How does Paul think he can provoke the non-elect, blinded by God, "Esau" that God "hates" prepared for destruction Jew to the point of salvation?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Not only can the non-elect be provoked to turn and be saved, the saved should fear being cut-off!
Note that God is able to graft them in again. Man doesn't graft himself in, God does it. But God can only graft those in do not continue in unbelief. So there is the action of God and the belief of man. Paul's own words refute a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9.
You should be able to see why I am unconvinced of a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. You've got the non-elect, blinded by God coming to faith! But I thought only the elect were going to be saved? That's why I agree with Steve Gregg that one can move "in Christ" making them elect in Christ, or fall from that position. I believe it because Paul teaches it in the very context and flow of thought of Romans 9!
You can hear James White's take on Romans 9 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKJgC1_6NN0
First, Romans 9. If you like, just accept what James White (or your favorite Calvinist commentary) says it means. Then keep reading. Let's find out what Paul thinks about the non-elect Jew's fate.
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So the "called" have one end, but what about the rest?
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
First, Paul already seems to have stated what the elect or "called" receive from chapters 8-9. Rom 9:24 says they were prepared for glory. So who is it that Paul desires to be saved? Well, Romans 9:6 tells us that not all Israel are of Israel. So Paul, after his discussion through Romans 9 "seems" to tell us the fate of the two classes of Jews (yes, Gentiles get in there too). There are the ones God has compassion on and the ones He hardens ("vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"). Paul reveals that he desires that they may be saved!
Paul goes on through Romans 10 telling us that they should have known better but they did not. They are disobedient.
Now, it gets interesting. Paul says:
Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
So it seems those whom God foreknew are not going to be cast away, we all know that. Let's read on...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
How can Paul say that?! The elect obtained, but the blinded ones Paul says they have not fallen beyond recovery! They are actually to be provoked by the Gentiles coming to salvation. How can someone who is not elect and blinded by God be provoked to jealousy if what is required is that they be "elect" by God from the foundation of the earth?
Paul says it again:
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Tell me. How does Paul think he can provoke the non-elect, blinded by God, "Esau" that God "hates" prepared for destruction Jew to the point of salvation?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Not only can the non-elect be provoked to turn and be saved, the saved should fear being cut-off!
Note that God is able to graft them in again. Man doesn't graft himself in, God does it. But God can only graft those in do not continue in unbelief. So there is the action of God and the belief of man. Paul's own words refute a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9.
You should be able to see why I am unconvinced of a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. You've got the non-elect, blinded by God coming to faith! But I thought only the elect were going to be saved? That's why I agree with Steve Gregg that one can move "in Christ" making them elect in Christ, or fall from that position. I believe it because Paul teaches it in the very context and flow of thought of Romans 9!
