Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

Todd,

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

"The house of Israel" is understood to be a prophetic reference to the Church, i.e. all Christians. "They all shall know me", that is, all Christians will know The Lord, and it is to them the promise of forgiveness is made.

The application of the prophecy is to the house of Israel only.

[Guest]

This is the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in the hearts of men even though it may be unknown to them. The world is full of people like this. This also answers the question about the person who lives in Timbukto who never hears a preacher or reads the Bible. The Law of Christ is written on his heart, and he, like everyone else "knows" the Lord (according to Jeremiah Chapter 31:34).

Everyone knows the Lord? Not according to Paul who called the devil the god of this age who blinds the eyes of unbelievers. 2 Cor 4.4
If everyone will know the Lord it won't be in this age because Satan is the god of this age but everyone may know the Lord when the books are opened for the inhabitants of the LOF to hear. It's assumed that the books are containing the works of people but God does'nt need books for recordkeeping, the books may be the gospels.
"And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness" Isa 29.18

[mgarrett]

Todd,

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

"The house of Israel" is understood to be a prophetic reference to the Church, i.e. all Christians. "They all shall know me", that is, all Christians will know The Lord, and it is to them the promise of forgiveness is made.

The application of the prophecy is to the house of Israel only.

Homer,

You added a word. The word "only" is not there. If it were Israel only then only Jews could be saved. He was speaking at that time to Israel, so it makes sense that he would say it in this way.

The scriptures says that everyone from the "least to the greatest" would know the Lord. Jesus explained who this is.

Matt 5:19
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So even those who are disobedient "know the Lord." They just don't choose to follow. The Lord will render unto them according to their works.

Todd

[mgarrett]

I know I quote the following passage rather frequently, but I think it settles a lot of our disagreement. It describes future reward and corrective punishment. It is inconsistent with the easy way (Christ covered our sin so that God doesn't see our sin but Christ's righteousness. All you have to do is to trust in His finished work).
It tells us that everyone will be judged according to his works:

Romans 2:6-10

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

Paidion,

So you are saying that this scripture settles the issue about the timing of the judgment? I disagree. Firstly, Paul makes this statement immediately after explaining that the Wrath of God is already being poured out on the ungodly.

Secondly, I think you are saying that, because it is written in a future tense, it must not have happened yet. Think of this. It can be said of my employer....

"He will give to every man his wages on the 15th and the 30th of the month."

This is indeed a valid statement that is written in future tense. But, my employer has been doing this for 65 years.

Todd

[mgarrett]

To all:

I do not claim to have worked out all the issues on this subject, nor do I claim that everything I have posted is exactly correct. Two years ago I believed the traditional view of hell, just like most of you. But this belief was challenged in my mind so I began to study the scriptures looking for alternative ways to interpret them. Those of you who continue to believe the traditional view must be able to satisfy yourselves regarding the following questions.

1. Is God either incapable of saving everyone, or is he unwilling?
2. Why would God withhold his punishment until it is too late to do anything about it?
3. What purpose could be served by "eternal" punishment?
4. Is it just to punish someone forever for a few years of disobedience?
5. How can death be destroyed if most people are annihilated?
6. If most people go to hell then isn't Satan the greater victor?
7. What about that guy in Timbukto who never hears the Gospel in his lifetime? (this applies to most of mankind who has ever lived)
8. Why would God who said, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you," send His enemies to hell?
9. If it is repugnant to me to think of sending people to a "traditional view" hell, am I more merciful than God who created me in His image? Is the creation more merciful than the creator?

Some of you may say, "His ways are above our ways," or "we'll all understand it by and by." That's not a good enough answer for me.

May God truly bless you all.

Todd

[Guest]

Father of Five-
I spent Christmas morning up till about noon here wading thru the posts regarding this and am glad I did.
Some great points were made by many but at the end of the day I am left with the question - "Why would the almighty, loving and all-knowing God create someone/thing to torment the being forever and ever and ever? What purpose would be served? I just don't think He did. At one point in my life after reading Dr. Hurley's The Outcome of Infinite Grace and seeing a fine televised debate pertaining to eternal torment I wondered if I was like the fellow debating in favor of a literal eternal hell. This guy really seemed to NEED to have that hell. A time of correction would be more in keeping with God's nature and redemptive plan than this. There is more scripture needing to be explained away to get to eternal torment than to get to Christ reconciling all things to himself. God bless all-

[Guest]

To all:

I do not claim to have worked out all the issues on this subject, nor do I claim that everything I have posted is exactly correct. Two years ago I believed the traditional view of hell, just like most of you. But this belief was challenged in my mind so I began to study the scriptures looking for alternative ways to interpret them. Those of you who continue to believe the traditional view must be able to satisfy yourselves regarding the following questions.

1. Is God either incapable of saving everyone, or is he unwilling?
2. Why would God withhold his punishment until it is too late to do anything about it?
3. What purpose could be served by "eternal" punishment?
4. Is it just to punish someone forever for a few years of disobedience?
5. How can death be destroyed if most people are annihilated?
6. If most people go to hell then isn't Satan the greater victor?
7. What about that guy in Timbukto who never hears the Gospel in his lifetime? (this applies to most of mankind who has ever lived)

Some of you may say, "His ways are above our ways," or "we'll all understand it by and by." That's not a good enough answer for me.

May God truly bless you all.

Todd

Hi Todd,

Merry Christmas!

I hope you don't mind more questions about your ideas. I admit that universalism is a very appealing proposition, especially to those of us that have lost people we love, who did not seem follow the Lord during their lifetimes; eternal torment seems so out of proportion to how they lived their lives. But just wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. You may be correct, but I don't see it yet.

I, too, have trouble with the questions on your list, except #5. Why can't death be destroyed after unbelievers have been annihilated?

Also, you say that judgment happens here, during our lifetimes. Is that for both the unrighteous and the righteous? If so, what does it mean to you to "lay up treasure in heaven?" (Matt 6:20)

Lastly, I can't see what would be the advantage for a believer in a hostile environment. You know, those people through the centuries, and even now, who suffer imprisonment, torture, and death for their witness. Wouldn't it be better for them to live quietly, do good works when they can, but never claim to follow Christ so they can be spared physical punishment? I know you say that they would give up peace, joy, etc., but at least they would live longer. It would almost seem that we would do them a disfavor to evangelize.

[Guest]

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

We are told here that the Law of God would be written on every man's heart, that all would know Him. This event happened on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out upon all flesh. This is true for Tiger Woods as well as everyone else. So when Tiger, from his heart, feels led to give charitably to others, he is obeying the Law of Christ that is written on his heart. Tiger will be rewarded for this by God with spiritual blessings. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in the hearts of men even though it may be unknown to them. The world is full of people like this. This also answers the question about the person who lives in Timbukto who never hears a preacher or reads the Bible. The Law of Christ is written on his heart, and he, like everyone else "knows" the Lord (according to Jeremiah Chapter 31:34).

I would agree with Homer, that "every man" in this passage, is "every man" in the house of Israel (i.e. the Church).

The Holy Spirit was not poured out upon "all flesh" on the day of Pentacost.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

"They" are the disciples, according to the context. This fulfills the prophecy which says that the Spirit will be poured out on "all flesh", but the text of scripture would show over and over, that only those that believe recieve the Spirit. The "all" here, is in reference to all people groups, nations, tribes, tongues, etc..

Are you saying that the men that said, "These men are full of new wine", while observing the behaviour of those filled with the Spirit were themselves filled with the Spirit? All of those that have tortured and killed the body of Christ throughout time are filled with the Spirit of God?

I think the "Tiger" example, and those that do good works as he does, are showing that they are made in God's image, not that they are filled with His Spirit.

[Guest]

I would agree with Homer, that "every man" in this passage, is "every man" in the house of Israel (i.e. the Church).

I don't see that it's just for the church, it sounds to me like Jeremiah is making a contrast between the jews and the gentiles.
"No longer shall EVERY MAN teach his neighbor , and EVERY MAN his brother ,saying , Know the Lord."
There is no qualification made in the phrase , every man. The question as i see it, is when will this be realized?

[Guest]

I would agree with Homer, that "every man" in this passage, is "every man" in the house of Israel (i.e. the Church).

I don't see that it's just for the church, it sounds to me like Jeremiah is making a contrast between the jews and the gentiles.
"No longer shall EVERY MAN teach his neighbor , and EVERY MAN his brother ,saying , Know the Lord."
There is no qualification made in the phrase , every man. The question as i see it, is when will this be realized?

How would you see this from the context? Besides, the "every man" spoken of, is only in the KJV/NKJV of the bible. Others say:

(ESV) And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother...

(Jay P. Green's LITV) And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother...

(NASB) "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother...

(YLT) And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother...

I didn't think that it was unclear in the KJV, becasue the context shows that it is Israel that is spoken of when it says "every man", but I thought these translations show this more accurately.

Where do you see any mention of Gentiles in the context of Jeremiah 31? In my opinion, you are reading somthing into the text that is not there. I would however, agree that gentiles can be part of Israel, by knowing Christ, but that doesn't change the fact that "every man" in this passage is speaking of the only people in the context. Namely "...the house of Israel, and ...the house of Judah... (Jer. 31:31).

God bless,