Thayer's "Origin and History..."

[_Steve]

I just read Thayer's "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment," which can be read online at this link: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.shtml
I cut and pasted it to a Word document, and converted it to 12-point text, with one-inch margins, which rendered it about 115 pages.

The book was written in the 19th century by a Christian Universalist. It is not so much a defense of universalism (though it is that) as it is a demonstration that the idea of endless punishment arose from Egyptian religion, was absorbed from that source into Graco-Roman religion, and then was adopted by the Jews in the intertestamental period. Then, from the Jewish and Grecian sources, it found its way into the Christian church by the time of Tertullian.

Thayer powerfully demonstrates the bad fruit that the doctrine produced in the Medieval Church. He lived at a time (like our own) when Christian Universalism was gaining credibility among evangelical Christian thinkers, and he felt that he saw an increase in humane tempers accompanying this shift in Europe and America.

I found it very helpful and compelling.

I thought the only weak points of his argument were his treatment of "the second death" in the Revelation passages (a book which he, annoyingly, kept referring to as the book of "Revelations"), and (to a lesser degree) his conclusions about the use of "gehenna" by Jesus.

He turned out to be an early-date preterist (possibly a full-preterist) in his approach to Revelation, which I appreciated, but I could not agree with his treatment of the "second death" passages.

He got to within a hair's breadth of recognizing that the "gehenna" references in the Gospels apply specifically to the destruction of Jerusalem, but ended up saying that "gehenna" was simply a term that came to be used for general disaster and ruin.

I would enjoy hearing responses, for and against, from those here who may read it. If anyone can point out flaws in his general thesis, I would be interested in hearing them.

[Guest]

Steve,

I will try to read it and give you feedback but I am backlogged in my reading now.

If you are doing research on the topic for a book here is a must read for the eternal punishment view, it is a classic:

The Doctrine of Endless Punishment by GT Shedd

Shedd makes a strong case that the doctrine of eternal punishment and reward is taught in the Old Testament as well as the New. I was leaning toward the annihilationist view but Shedd is pretty convincing. I know you believe his view is the weakest of the three, but he might change your mind (that is, if you haven't read it before).

Given that Thayer claims the Jews at the time of Jesus believed in the doctrine of eternal punishment, the following statement by Shedd, regarding the numerous warnings he cites that Jesus made regarding the future state of the lost, is telling:

Do these representations, and this phraseology, make the impression that the future punishment of sin is to be remedial and temporary?

It would seem that the answer is obviously no.

I could only find it in pdf and it looks like it is not in a very good form for copying unless you can select the pages to copy with your computor; there seem to be several blank pages. The book can be ordered at Amazon.

[_Steve]

Thanks, Homer. The books I am reading frequently make reference to Shedd's "Dogmatic Theology." I had planned to buy it on Amazon, but it was a little more expensive than some of the other good books on the subject, so I settled for others. However, I am glad to find this online. I appreciate the link!

[Guest]

He got to within a hair's breadth of recognizing that the "gehenna" references in the Gospels apply specifically to the destruction of Jerusalem, but ended up saying that "gehenna" was simply a term that came to be used for general disaster and ruin.

Steve, is it your view that "gehenna" (as used by Jesus) always referred to the destruction of Jerusalem? How do you interpret its usage in Matthew 10:28?

[Guest]

I've seen Thayer's book/article before.
(No comments on it for now though)....

Steve,

Did you ever finish Edward Fudge's The Fire That Consumes ?
I was going to ask you on the radio but forgot. Thanks,

[_Steve]

JC asked:

"Steve, is it your view that "gehenna" (as used by Jesus) always referred to the destruction of Jerusalem? How do you interpret its usage in Matthew 10:28?"


Yes, I believe that Jesus used "gehenna" the same way that Jeremiah used it (e.g., 19:1-15)—namely, as a reference to the fact that Jerusalem was to be invaded by enemies, and there would be such a slaughter that the corpses would fill the Valley of the sons of Hinnom (GR. "gehenna")—also called "Tophet". Isaiah also spoke of it this way, in Isaiah 66:24. Though Isaiah does not specifically identify the location as the Valley of Hinnom, Jesus, quoting from this passage (Mark 9:43-44, etc.), says that it is this valley that Isaiah is describing.

The question can be asked, "Were the corpses of the dead literally thrown into the Valley of Hinnom in 586 BC (as Jeremiah suggested) or in AD 70 (as Jesus threatened)?" I don't know the answer to this question—nor necessarily need one. If someone would find a reference in Josephus to this happening, it would be very interesting, but unnecessary. Josephus does tell us that dead bodies were piled on top of each other in the streets of Jerusalem. They certainly had to be disposed of somewhere. The Valley of Hinnom, just outside the walls on the southwest edge of Jesusalem, was the perpetually-burning city dump, and we are told that bodies of criminals, and others who were refused burial, were wont to be burned there. It would be surprising if these bodies were not disposed of in this manner, whether we were told of it or not.

In any case, the words of Jesus need not to be taken strictly literally in order for them the designate the same meaning as that in which Jeremiah had previously used them. In Jeremiah 19, the Valley of Hinnom was identified as the repository for the slain in the conquest of Jerusalem. Jesus' words may have been intended literally, or only as a way of saying that the disaster of Jeremiah's day was soon to be re-enacted.

You asked about Matthew 10:28, in particular. I once considered this verse to be a problem to this identification with the Valley of Hinnom. It reads:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The problem here is with the mention of killing both body and soul in gehenna. There is a contrast between this, on the one hand, and those who can merely kill the physical body, on the other. Therefore, it sounds as if Jesus is contrasting physical death with a further, second death (as in Revelation 20:15)—one involving, not only the body, but also the soul, in ruin. How could it be suggested that being thrown into the Valley of Hinnom has a destructive effect on one's non-material soul? This must refer to punishment beyond the grave—I once thought.

I have, more recently, considered the following about this matter.

The like expression, predicting the destruction of "body and soul" has a completely non-literal meaning in a passage like Isaiah 10:18, which, in describing the judgment of God upon the pride of Assyria:

"And it [fire of God's judgment] will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away."

Since forests and fields, technically, do not have "souls" this would seem to be figurative, bearing the meaning of "completely."

On the other hand, if trees and plants of the field be taken as symbolic of people (which is not unheard-of in scripture), then we still have the bodies "and souls" of men being destroyed in a judgment (when Assyria was conquered) that was strictly military, which does not suggest anything about a hell beyond the grave. (notice that, in both Isaiah and Matthew, the specific order "both soul and body" are used—almost as if Jesus was repeating an Old Testament idiomatic expression).

Looking again at Matthew 10:28, I have come to believe that Jesus is not making the contrast between two kinds of deaths—one physical, and one spiritual—so that we should fear the second, but not the first. Instead, I think He is contrasting dying a "good death" (faithful to God under persecution) with dying a "bad death" (under God's wrath, as with those who will be slaughtered and cast into the Valley of Hinnom).

Jesus underscores the difference between a noble martyrdom, on the one hand, and coming to an ignoble, shameful end, under God's disfavor, on the other. The latter, of course, may well involve even graver consequences at a later judgment on the last day—increasing the reasons for being fearful of it—but such a judgment may not necessarily be within the purview of Jesus' warning to His disciples in speaking of fearing the prospect of being cast into gehenna.

[_Steve]

Rick_C,

I have not finished Fudge's book yet, though I certainly will do so. Pinnock says Fudge's book is the "best" one on the annihilationist position.

[Guest]

Hi Steve, (not exactly on the thread-topic but)....

I googled a reference to Fudge's book.
(On p. 190 it said Fudge wrote that):
Josephus reported the dead being thrown into the Valley of Hinnom (gehenna) during the Great War. Other references said Josephus also recorded the same for the Kidron Valley.

Here's an excerpt from "70 A.D War" @ Livius site:

The Roman commanders now knew that their enemies would fight for every inch of their city, and understood that the siege of Jerusalem would take a long time. Therefore, Titus changed his plans. There were signs that the supplies of Jerusalem were giving out: some Jews had left the city, hoping to find food in the valleys in front of the walls. Many of them had been caught and crucified - some five hundred every day. (The soldiers had amused themselves by nailing their victims in different postures.) The Romans decided to starve the enemies into surrender. In three days, Jerusalem was surrounded with an eight kilometer long palisade. All trees within fifteen kilometres of the city were cut down [1]. The camps of the legions V Macedonica, XII Fulminata and XV Apollinaris were demolished; these troops were billeted on Bezetha.

The death rate among the besieged increased. Soon, the Kidron valley and the Valley of Hinnom were filled with corpses [2]. One defector told Titus that their number was estimated at 115,880. Desperate people tried to leave Jerusalem.

[1] Compare to Isaiah 10:18a.
"And it [fire of God's judgment] will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away."

I'm not one to look for literal fulfillments unless a passage warrants it but this seems like it could be one (at first glance). The "metaphor" appears to somewhat have actually happened....

[2] I haven't been able to locate Josephus or other references. Perhaps Edward Fudge has something(?).

"Body and soul"
Isaiah 10 (NET Bible with footnotes):
18 The splendor of his forest and his orchard
will be completely destroyed, 37
as when a sick man’s life ebbs away 38.
19 There will be so few trees left in his forest,
a child will be able to count them 39.
(Obviously, NET doesn't have the phrase "body and soul").

37 Heb “from breath to flesh it will destroy.” The expression “from breath to flesh” refers to the two basic components of a person, the immaterial (life’s breath) and the material (flesh). Here the phrase is used idiomatically to indicate totality.

38 The precise meaning of this line is uncertain. (Heb., masas), which is used elsewhere of substances dissolving or melting, may here mean “waste away” or “despair.” (nasas), which appears only here, may mean “be sick” or “stagger, despair.” One might translate the line literally, “like the wasting away of one who is sick” (cf. NRSV “as when an invalid wastes away”).

39 Heb “and the rest of the trees of his forest will be counted, and a child will record them.”

Focusing on 37 "body and soul"
The Hebrew order seems reversed ("breath to flesh").
I think you're right that Jesus could have had the Isaiah 10:18 passage in mind (leaving aside NET and other versions not having the exact (body and soul) phrase in English).

Genesis 2:7 (NET)
2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Could Jesus have had this verse or motif in mind?
And specifically with the order?
I think quite possibly so.
That is, the body created by God first; then the breath of life in-breathed, or we could say the "animation" of the body thus created.

In Jewish thought, or at least in a school of interpreting it (and the one I concur with); we don't "have" souls as much as we "are" souls: We both possess and are: 1) bodies 2) that breathe [Heb., nephesh, "living being" (NET) or "soul" (other versions)].

My view is the "Gehenna of the fire" (as I found it to be called in a NT era Aramaic reference) was a judgment against Israel, along the very same lines of judgment in the OT. In other words, Jesus: The Prophet of whom Moses spoke. We Christians can tend to think Jesus was done with [the then] nation of Israel when he went to Heaven. Of course, he was not.

Lastly, one article I read said that Gehenna was viewed as an "emblem" of the judgment of God. I've never heard it put quite like that. This "emblem" certainly lives on today. Interesting---and intense....

I'm still a Partial-Preterist, sorry if I got off-topic, and thanks for a good study!

[Guest]

Looking again at Matthew 10:28, I have come to believe that Jesus is not making the contrast between two kinds of deaths—one physical, and one spiritual—so that we should fear the second, but not the first. Instead, I think He is contrasting dying a "good death" (faithful to God under persecution) with dying a "bad death" (under God's wrath, as with those who will be slaughtered and cast into the Valley of Hinnom).

Jesus underscores the difference between a noble martyrdom, on the one hand, and coming to an ignoble, shameful end, under God's disfavor, on the other. The latter, of course, may well involve even graver consequences at a later judgment on the last day—increasing the reasons for being fearful of it—but such a judgment may not necessarily be within the purview of Jesus' warning to His disciples in speaking of fearing the prospect of being cast into gehenna.

Steve, I'm finding it difficult to understand this verse in this way, especially when also looking at the parallel in Luke:

Luk 12:4 And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will warn you of whom you shall fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into gehenna. Yea, I say to you, fear Him.

Do you think your explanation also works with this verse? There seems to be a definite progression of events and a distinction made between dying physically, then of further consequences.
(I don't in fact believe eternal torment in hell is taught in scripture, but am not sure what gehenna means here, or the lake of fire elsewhere).

P.S.
re. Thayer's "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment," I realised when I went to the link that I already have this on file along with some other stuff from the Tentmaker site. I don’t remember if I have read all of it, so intend to some time soon.

[_Steve]

Hi Suzana,

Thanks for raising this further point. The Lucan parallel does appear to fit my view less admirably than does the statement as it appears in Matthew.

I would observe that Luke mentions two aspects of the judgment:

1) death in the city, and
2) subsequent disposal of the corpse in gehenna.

I would expect for these to be separate events, in any case, even if it is speaking merely of the Valley of Hinnom.

This explanation may not commend itself to you, or to others. However, I think that the contrast is still between dying a faithful martyr, on the one hand, and dying under God's judgment, in the condemned city, on the other. Only those suffering the latter would face the prospect, in AD 70, of being subsequently cast into gehenna.