Universalism and the Patience of God

[RND]

He works hard at demonstrating his goodness? I believe God is love just as John said, but from what i see in this world God uses evil as a tool for humans to eventually benefit from.

Why blame God for the things Satan does? If you believe what you just said here then obviously you've bought into Satan's lies about God being a mean, unmerciful taskmaster. Who was kind enough to make sure the sun came up and air was placed in your lungs?

But the concept of using evil as a learning mechanism does not support the concept that God works hard to demonstrate his goodness to us.

I've got news for you...it's not found in scripture either.

We can find his goodness if we read scripture and if we are drawn to him through other means but the number one reason that people don't believe God cares for us is the constant suffering and pain and apparent lack of justice in this life for the majority of people who have lived on this planet.

And who's responsible for those things? God? Read Job 1.

I know that God will use evil for good but it is clearly a difficult concept to accept in this life.

I see it as evidence of buying the lies that the serpent sold to Eve.

He gave us His Son to die. What more could He do?

[auggybendoggy]

Hi all,
I used to be on the old board and was forever waiting for the fix. Finally I skimmed about and found the announcment that this board was launched. Congrats to the admins and community. Since then I opened our own board where Gregory Macdonald (Author of The Evangelical Universalist) contributes. For board rules reasons I won't drop the address as I'm not looking to steal away members.

As for the OP

It is a philosophical argument, as the only good arguments of the Universalists are.

The problem for non universalist is they lack ANY good philisophical arguments.

The main difference between U'ist and non-U'ists views are those that pertain to certain sound logics. One argues Love never fails and shows no favoritism while the other augments God's love so that it does not achieve it's highest goal (that none should perish) due to human freedom.

Scriptures often point in two directions (tensions, contradictions) leaving us all dead in our tracks in trying to prove sceintific (or shall I say dogmatic) theology. My point is simply because scripture shows that God's patience has a limit does not mean he cannot or will not save all. Scripture also says his love endures forever and if one tortures one forever than the obvious question must be asked..."what kind of love is that"? Is that God's love? Is that Agape?

this shows the Illogic of eternal torture which is the weak point of being a non-U'ist; that is there is no sound docrtine between a perfect loving God and a God who tortures (cuts to pieces) those whom he loves without end.

There may be reasons why he does but philisophically speaking, it is harder to prove than for a U'ist to prove God's patience has no limits.

In essence the Universalist only has to argue that perfect love which never fails will not continually bash in the object of his love.
The non universalist has to prove how God is perfect in love and continually bashes many objects of his love.

Auggy

[auggybendoggy]

RND-

if you mean by your comment that Paul's conscience was probably bothering him big time prior to the damascus road, i would agree with you. Jesus told him its hard to kick against the goads.

it's good to see you steve-- it's been a while.

TK

Yeah it's that, but also the fact that, when we think about it, Paul still had "free will" after his "Damascus Road" experience. This time however he chose to exercise his free will to save lives, not take them. My comment was, in essence, simply to point out the fact that we always have freedom of choice.

I would disagree whole heartedly. The implication of this post is that God had mercy on him becuase he was "repenting" or on the road to repenting. Pauls words to Timothy CLEARLY argue against the LFW position. That is, God had mercy on Paul NOT BECAUSE HE WAS REPENTANT, but because of his UNBELIEF and his IGNORANCE.
This is the reason God had mercy on him and it fits perfectly with the Evangelical universliast position.

So I would not put ANY stocks into pauls repentance but rather I'd invest pauls repentance into Gods choosing to display his UNLIMITED mercy on paul that God saved a man BECAUSE of his UNBELIEF and his IGNORANCE.

Aug

[steve7150]

Why blame God for the things Satan does? If you believe what you just said here then obviously you've bought into Satan's lies about God being a mean, unmerciful taskmaster. Who was kind enough to make sure the sun came up and air was placed in your lungs?

First of all i did'nt blame God, i said God uses evil for good. Secondly Satan is just a creation of God who probably was evil from the beginning, yet if you believe he was a good angel gone bad named Lucifer then God could simply destroy him yet he still uses him for a purpose.
Clearly if we lived in a perfect world with perfect justice we would never develop the characteristics that God wants us to develop like mercy,compassion,love,pity,sacrifice etc.

[RND]

First of all i did'nt blame God, i said God uses evil for good.

Just because there is evil doesn't mean that God was responsible for that evil. There is no wickedness in God.

Secondly Satan is just a creation of God who probably was evil from the beginning, yet if you believe he was a good angel gone bad named Lucifer then God could simply destroy him yet he still uses him for a purpose.

Sure, God could have done that. But what would have been the effects of such a demonstration? The angels that witnessed such a display would have easily been able to side with Satan and the charges he brought against God and His government. The angels would have seen God as "a love me or else." That's why God doesn't use Satan to His advantage but the sin of Satan to His advantage.

God knew when creating Satan there was a risk involved but perfect love acts justly in spite of the risks.

Clearly if we lived in a perfect world with perfect justice we would never develop the characteristics that God wants us to develop like mercy,compassion,love,pity,sacrifice etc.

That's also true. Malachi 3:3 stuff. Your question to me was, "He works hard at demonstrating his goodness?" In essence I ultimately think we are speaking the same language. God is just, fair and merciful because those are attributes of His character. God, in reality, can't help but do good. It is His enemies that never see that about Him that will eventually destroy themselves.

[Homer]

Steve7150 wrote:

I believe God is love just as John said

What Christian does not believe this? But is it an exhaustive description of His character? If so, then it would appear that love = God, and we have a big problem.

but the number one reason that people don't believe God cares for us is the constant suffering and pain and apparent lack of justice in this life for the majority of people who have lived on this planet.

I just returned this evening from California where I attended the funeral of my beloved niece. She was a Christian from her youth and died at the young age of 51. For the last many years of her life she suffered enormously in every way imaginable. Endured many surgeries, terrible health, financial devastation, divorce, and horrible personal treatment by close relatives. My wife, who also loved her, remarked in tears "I don't see how she can take any more". Then she had her final surgery, with much suffering for three months, only to be informed she was terminal. Many friends and family came that last day to say goodbye. She never wavered in her faith in God, and went to meet her Lord without fear and at peace.

I do not believe that suffering and the lack of justice in this life is any deterrant to faith in God. I believe it is as likely to bring people to God as not. People disbelieve because of their own selfish reasons; because they want to.

Aug wrote:

this shows the Illogic of eternal torture which is the weak point of being a non-U'ist; that is there is no sound docrtine between a perfect loving God and a God who tortures (cuts to pieces) those whom he loves without end.

As I have said elsewhere, I believe the punishment is real, but not a literal burning in fire, which I take metaphorically. Those who hate God are just where they want to be. Those who say to Him "Thy will be done" go to be with Him, and to those who reject Him, He says "thy will be done".

And:

The problem for non universalist is they lack ANY good philisophical arguments.

You haven't read much.

Talking about your philosophy, we have universalists speculating that:

1. God will burn them until they repent. This will take hundreds or thousands of years, and then they will repent of their own "free will" and be saved.

2. They will repent and be saved when they face Christ at judgement.

3. They will go to be with God when they die; they have received all their punishment in this life.

So much for philosophy and speculation.

In my initial post, I asked for scriptural proof from the Universalists and have as yet to receive any, just as I anticipated.

[steve7150]

In my initial post, I asked for scriptural proof from the Universalists and have as yet to receive any, just as i anticipated



Homer,

We have crossed swords over this as you have with Paidion and others and you know the deal. We have presented many verses that either say or allude to the fact "all" will be saved and your position is that the bible writers meant to add another word called
"POTENTIALLY" to all, as in "potentially all will be saved."
And you then accuse the CU of speculation!

[auggybendoggy]

Homer,
I certainly will not be one to claim to have read much. As for "unlimited patience" I don't believe the Universalists I know of claim "unlimited patience"in a sense that love never gets angry. In fact I believe that God's patience indeed does have limits but it never contradicts his love. For the foremost attribut listed of God's nature is "Love is patient". For if his love is patient and thus his patient ends than does God love that object? Perhaps he still loves them and if so then perhaps it can be seen on a larger scale that he is still being patient with them.

are you one of those who believes God's does not love the reprobate? Or perhaps you do but unfortunatley for both God and the reprobate, it just happened to not turn out (snake eyes).

We tend to make the connection that if God's love is perfect and patient and God loves the lost then we tend to think there will come a time when God will restore them (ezek 16). We do not believe LOVE NEVER GETS ANGRY. We believe when love does get angry it does not become hate. Therfore we believe his mercy, love and patience is forever and will not lose one sheep and therfore all creation is reconciled unto God. It makes no sense to me that God reconciled the world to himself by making peace by shedding his blood on the cross in order to condemn the ones who never figure out they're sick (sin).

So I guess you might say, we don't need even one scripture to say his patience is unlimited just as we don't need one scripture to say there is one God who is three persons.

What we find is a series of scriptures that promote the Idea that NOTHING thwarts God's will and God wants all men to come to repentance and is the savior of all men especially of those who believe. That his love endures forever. That God loves all men. That God has reconciled the entire world unto himself by MAKING PEACE. That we are called to be like God and Forgive 70x7.

The philisophical approaches of the ET or the ANN seem to me to always lack. Just as I wrote before, God tortures forever (that is what scripture says) the objects of his love. Unless his love does not endure forever or perhaps he never loved them.

Aug