The Danger of Universalism

[steve7150]

Also Paul said " For the creation was subjected to frustration not by it's own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, IN THE HOPE that the creation itself WILL BE LIBERATED from the bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8.20-21





You say Paul is referring to Satan? Can you be specific here? Was Satan hoping the creation would be liberated from the bondage of decay and become children of God?

[RND]

You say Paul is referring to Satan?

Who did Paul blame sin and the fall of man on? See Romans 5. Why was the world transformed from perfect to toil? Who was ultimately responsible? God?

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he (Jesus) might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

Can you be specific here?

The earth was changed because of man's sin against God where man was made subject to the will of Satan through deception. This was not part of God's original plan.

Was Satan hoping the creation would be liberated from the bondage of decay and become children of God?

Isn that what you read Romans 8:20-21 to be saying? Creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God through the life of Jesus Christ.

[steve7150]

Also Paul said " For the creation was subjected to frustration not by it's own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, IN THE HOPE that the creation itself WILL BE LIBERATED from the bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8.20-21




I don't deny our fight is against Satan but my point is that this scenerio is not happenstance , it's part of God using evil to eventually help transform us into children of God.
Satan has authority of the world because man gave it to him but through Christ (2nd Adam) we can claim it back since Christ took authority back AS A MAN (John 12.31) and we should have exactly what God explicitly gave us, dominion of the earth. That's why Christ had to come as a man and do everything as a man to legally undo Adam's transgression.
Now if you disagree that fine, i stated my opinion you stated yours , neither of us has to convince the other. We are just sharing our views for consideration, have a nice day friend.

[RND]

I don't deny our fight is against Satan but my point is that this scenerio is not happenstance , it's part of God using evil to eventually help transform us into children of God.

God uses "evil" to His advantage in saving mankind. God does not use evil as a tool. God is not responsible for the evil created in the world, Satan is, God is responsible for "reconciling" the world back to Himself through the evidence of His love demonstrated in the live of Jesus Christ.

Satan has authority of the world because man gave it to him but through Christ (2nd Adam) we can claim it back since Christ took authority back AS A MAN (John 12.31) and we should have exactly what God explicitly gave us, dominion of the earth.

Have you been outside recently Steve? Satan still has control of this world. It is his, and he has dominion over it. He does not own or have dominion over those who have stepped out in faith into the Kingdom of God.

Man didn't "give" Satan authority. Man "acquiesced" authority by rejecting the council that the Lord gave Adam.

That's why Christ had to come as a man and do everything as a man to legally undo Adam's transgression.

"....legally undo Adam's transgression?" What's that? Where in the world is it "legal" for a "just man" to die in place of a "guilty man" allowing the guilty man to go free?

Now if you disagree that fine, i stated my opinion you stated yours , neither of us has to convince the other. We are just sharing our views for consideration, have a nice day friend.

Yep, that's so true. I just don't see the salvation process as a forensic process, I see the salvation process as one built on "unconditional" love. BTW Steve, have you thought much about the the scapegoat being sent out into the wilderness on the Day of Atonement?

[steve7150]

Satan has authority of the world because man gave it to him but through Christ (2nd Adam) we can claim it back since Christ took authority back AS A MAN (John 12.31) and we should have exactly what God explicitly gave us, dominion of the earth.

Have you been outside recently Steve? Satan still has control of this world. It is his, and he has dominion over it. He does not own or have dominion over those who have stepped out in faith into the Kingdom of God.

Man didn't "give" Satan authority. Man "acquiesced" authority by rejecting the council that the Lord gave Adam.






I don't feel like this interchange is productive anymore so thanks for your opinions on this but we should agree to disagree and move on, brother.

[auggybendoggy]

I would say the problem is unbelief.

I agree unbelief is the problem? But there is much to say about this. For the CU(UR, EU) we hold that is exactly why God shows his unlimited mercy, not because the person figures it out nor because he is a good man who repented. Rather it's the unbelief that moves God to save which displays his grace not merited.

Aug

[Homer]

Hi Steve,

I'm a bit tardy on this. On this thread on 1/8/09 you wrote:

The only passages that I can think of (at the moment) where Jesus seems to be talking about the final punishment of sinners, would be found in seven parables (all in Matthew): 1) the wheat and tares (13:41-42); 2) the dragnet and the fish (13:49-50) 3) the guest without a wedding garment (22:13); 4) the unfaithful servant, who is cut in two at his master's return (24:51); 5) the ten virgins (25:12); 6) the talents, and the similar parable of the minas (25:30); 7) the sheep and the goats (25:41, 46). If there are others, they elude me at the moment.

Some of these might not even be about the final judgment, as (according to some preterists) they may have an AD 70 fulfillment. One thing that can be said about these teachings is that they are all parables—not straightforward doctrinal discourses .......This last passage and these phrases have been much discussed at this forum, and it is the only passage in the teaching of Jesus that might appear to support the rabbinic teaching of eternal torment.

In Luke the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus should probably be included in your list, although it appears to be about the intermediate state. It does seem to strongly support the idea of God's irrevocable judgement. Even more important, in my view, is the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:23-35. Did you overlook it? Regarding this parable, Joachim Jeremias commented:

The promise of the servant (v. 26, "I will pay thee all") "is impossible of fulfillment.....in view of the magnitude of the debt, can only mean that the punishment was endless".

It is worth noting that in illustrating the enormaity of the debt, Jesus used the largest denomination of money (the talent) and the largest quantity (10,000) used in reckoning.

Jeremias concluded: "This is a parable about the last judgement."

I do not believe the teaching of the parables can be minimized regarding this matter. Some of the clearest teachings of Jesus were in the parables and stories He told. Bob George, for one, has claimed Jesus taught nothing about grace, but, in my opinion, this same parable teaches grace more clearly than anything Paul wrote.

[steve]

Hi Homer,

I did not count the story of Lazarus and the rich man, nor the story of the unmerciful servant because I have not regarded them as parables of final judgment (though the latter could be about that).

The first of these two is problematic, as it makes no reference to circumstances as far in the future as the final judgment. We don't know if we are dealing with an actual case, an original parable, or a borrowed parable of rabbinic origin. Jesus did not appear to have told the story as a teaching about the state of the dead, but, rather, about the need for those who are privileged (whether economically or spiritually—it is debated) to show practical compassion upon the underprivileged. Possibly like the lesson of the book of Jonah. In any case, depending upon one's assumptions, the story can fit into more than one scenario regarding the final judgment, since that subject is not directly touched upon. For example, one might argue (though I wouldn't) that the rich man's torment was to be temporary, until the judgment, after which he would be considered to have "served his time." I am afraid that this particular story is not as useful in determining the question at hand as many in the traditional camp seem to believe it to be.

The unmerciful servant may, as you have suggested, be a picture of the final judgment. I have always tended to regard it as a picture of divine discipline in the present life. If Jeremias is correct in regarding it as a picture of the final condemnation of sinners (in this case, former Christians, who had known the forgiveness of God, but lost it), then there is still the question of the meaning of "until he should pay all that was due to him." Our assumption may be that the man in the grips of tormentors would never be able to pay off the huge debt, though the parable does not assure us of this. It may be that this man will remain in torment for the rest of his life, but the possibility of his debt being paid by a benefactor, or by his debtors coming forward, or by some other means is not ruled out. The possibility of his being later released is simply not within the range of the parable's view.

It is particularly difficult for us to imagine this man ever repaying his debt, because it is a monetary one and he cannot earn money in debtor's prison. Thus his state seems endless (until his death, at least. It would end then). But if the sinner's actual debt is not monetary, but is, rather, the obligation to repent, or to forgive his fellow servant, or to suffer commensurately for his crime, then who can say whether his circumstances might be changed in the future? I am not trying to grasp at straws here. I am only suggesting that, if this parable does speak of the final judgment, it does not, by its wording ("until he should pay all that was due to him."), necessarily exclude the possibility of the man's eventual release.

In any case, I have, for some decades now, believed that the "tormentors" may be demonic spirits sent as a discipline upon those who "let the sun go down on their wrath" and, thus, who "give place to the devil" (Eph.4:26-27), an example of which may be seen in 1 Samuel 18:9-10.

[Homer]

Hi Steve,

You are up early! Thanks for the quick reply.

In regard to the question of the fate of the lost, I had intended to ask if you can think of any parable(s) that seem to support UR.

Thanks and God bless, Homer

[steve]

Hi Homer,

I'm not up so early. Just in a different time zone. I am in Toronto. I posted about 9:00 AM, Eastern Time. That's 6:00 AM for you (and normally for me).

Do I know any parables that seem to support Universal Reconciliation? Not really. Not off-hand. Maybe the one last described, about the unmerciful servant—if it addresses final destinies at all. It does seem interesting that a theoretical limit to the time of incarceration is mentioned, but, as I said, I have not generally seen it as referring to the final judgment anyway.

However, I do not view very many parables as addressing the end of the world or the eternal fate of men. A few of them might (as the examples I gave above). If there is biblical support for the UR position, I think it would be found in the more plain teachings of the apostles (e.g., Acts 3:21/ Rom.5:18/ Eph.1:9-10/ 1 Tim.4:10, etc.), rather than in the parables of Jesus. I do not say that these passages must necessarily be interpreted as teaching UR. I am only saying that this is where most of the scriptural support would appear to be found.

Blessings!

Steve